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  #161  
Old 01.12.2012, 22:57
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

Personally I wouldn't be so pessimistic about it.

True that the past is past, the deads are dead, the new born won't disappear on any side, a launching of nukes in the own houseyard is no real option, so somehow there has to be an arrangement, and it's not that Israel/Palestine wouldn't have some success in some fields (e.g. the situation of Arab Israeli citizens).

What is necessary on both sides is a clear view on the fact that what needs to be done is reinstatement of justice by law and civil rights.
And - again - it's easier for Israel to push towards that direction, as it already is a functioning modern democracy - which btw is one of the reasons why the world is more critical towards Israel than towards PA. A country that claims to be like Denmark or better (not very modest but maybe not untrue in some aspects) is measured under that modern society conditions,

and not under that ones of a para-state or semi-institutions the Palestinians were always hindered and blocked particularly by Israel to build up.


How could one blame Arafat for not being able to stop suicidal bombing, if he had no real institution and no State for executing that control, particularly if those institutions were actively destabilized by Israel, civil rights to Palestinians under Israeli control negated and an own functioning State far from being reality?

What Israel needs is more people that say (and accept) the truth (and it's not that there weren't any). IDF uses and used terroristic means (at least in the perception of bombed persons, and for sure regarding Irgun activities prior to IDF), there were ethnic cleanings (ask Uri Avnery), the occupation of the West Bank is an occupation (as no civil rights granted to the population), not only Jewish Israeli are under Hamas missile attack (but also Arab Israeli, like it was the case also when Hezbollah launched rockets on Galilee), and once the Palestinians being helped for building up something like a modern society one can claim with good reasons also from the Palestinians to admit cruelties against Jews e.g. Jerusalem 1936 and 48, torture in Palestinian prisons and a high degree of corruption of the ruling class.

Israel has to accept the Naqba (otherwise one day it will lose the conflict i.e. lose it once and for all), like the Palestinians have to accept that the alliance with the "brotherly" countries in 48 was fatal.
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  #162  
Old 01.12.2012, 23:32
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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Personally I wouldn't be so pessimistic about it.

True that the past is past, the deads are dead, the new born won't disappear on any side, a launching of nukes in the own houseyard is no real option, so somehow there has to be an arrangement, and it's not that Israel/Palestine wouldn't have some success in some fields (e.g. the situation of Arab Israeli citizens).

What is necessary on both sides is a clear view on the fact that what needs to be done is reinstatement of justice by law and civil rights.
And - again - it's easier for Israel to push towards that direction, as it already is a functioning modern democracy - which btw is one of the reasons why the world is more critical towards Israel than towards PA. A country that claims to be like Denmark or better (not very modest but maybe not untrue in some aspects) is measured under that modern society conditions,

and not under that ones of a para-state or semi-institutions the Palestinians were always hindered and blocked particularly by Israel to build up.


How could one blame Arafat for not being able to stop suicidal bombing, if he had no real institution and no State for executing that control, particularly if those institutions were actively destabilized by Israel, civil rights to Palestinians under Israeli control negated and an own functioning State far from being reality?

What Israel needs is more people that say (and accept) the truth (and it's not that there weren't any). IDF uses and used terroristic means (at least in the perception of bombed persons, and for sure regarding Irgun activities prior to IDF), there were ethnic cleanings (ask Uri Avnery), the occupation of the West Bank is an occupation (as no civil rights granted to the population), not only Jewish Israeli are under Hamas missile attack (but also Arab Israeli, like it was the case also when Hezbollah launched rockets on Galilee), and once the Palestinians being helped for building up something like a modern society one can claim with good reasons also from the Palestinians to admit cruelties against Jews e.g. Jerusalem 1936 and 48, torture in Palestinian prisons and a high degree of corruption of the ruling class.

Israel has to accept the Naqba (otherwise one day it will lose the conflict i.e. lose it once and for all), like the Palestinians have to accept that the alliance with the "brotherly" countries in 48 was fatal.

Mostly agree except not about the West Bank;
On Saturday October 20th, Palestinians in the West Bank had the opportunity to elect new local councils for the first time since 2006.
Preliminary results indicate that the main political party Fateh had much to give up during Saturday’s elections; Fateh only won 40% of the candidate seats, despite the non-participation of Hamas who boycotted the elections, which did not take place in the Gaza Strip. It was in fact former Fateh members who broke away from the main party to form their own electoral lists who won the majority of seats in the West Bank’s major towns and cities. The leftist and independent parties gained another 20%.


Mostly agree except apart from "the occupation of the West Bank is an occupation (as no civil rights granted to the population)",
An alternative view is "From the 500,000 registered Palestinians who were eligible to vote, 55% took part in the elections, which are viewed as another positive step for democracy in Palestine. However, what is also needed is for presidential and legislative elections to commence which should include the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Jerusalem. "

I agree 55% is low but how many voted here on the animal vaccination thing? 22%?
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  #163  
Old 02.12.2012, 02:22
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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Thank you for coming out and saying this. These discussions always seem to deteriote into who was there first. It is irrelevant especially since both jews and arabs lived on the land before it became the state of israel. The only way forward is to find a solution for the future and that means not dwelling on the past.
I agree, but without fully understanding the past, meaning BOTH sides of the story how on earth can you find a way forward. I only mention the Jewish refugees since the story is never told, there only seems to be one plight portrayed in the Media.

The same old rhetoric spills out into these pages also, Jews marched in from nowhere and kicked the people off the land and now seem to want to commit Genocide. So, from my point of view there needs to be a more balanced story here.....
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  #164  
Old 02.12.2012, 13:07
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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I agree, but without fully understanding the past, meaning BOTH sides of the story how on earth can you find a way forward. I only mention the Jewish refugees since the story is never told, there only seems to be one plight portrayed in the Media.

The same old rhetoric spills out into these pages also, Jews marched in from nowhere and kicked the people off the land and now seem to want to commit Genocide. So, from my point of view there needs to be a more balanced story here.....
About "fully understanding the past"

Do you think this is really possible? So many conflicting views & stories?
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  #165  
Old 02.12.2012, 15:24
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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I agree, but without fully understanding the past, meaning BOTH sides of the story how on earth can you find a way forward. I only mention the Jewish refugees since the story is never told, there only seems to be one plight portrayed in the Media.

The same old rhetoric spills out into these pages also, Jews marched in from nowhere and kicked the people off the land and now seem to want to commit Genocide. So, from my point of view there needs to be a more balanced story here.....
http://www.google.ca/search?q=jewish...w=1280&bih=899

here you go .

http://www.palestineremembered.com/MissionStatement.htm Pay attention to the dates etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair

Last edited by cannut; 02.12.2012 at 16:08.
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  #166  
Old 02.12.2012, 16:10
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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I agree, but without fully understanding the past, meaning BOTH sides of the story how on earth can you find a way forward. I only mention the Jewish refugees since the story is never told, there only seems to be one plight portrayed in the Media.
...
I beg your pardon?

In European media it is told all the time (and it's a good thing that it's done, also if I don't think it's a good idea to do so at 18.30), are you blind or don't you understand the languages?


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The same old rhetoric spills out into these pages also, Jews marched in from nowhere and kicked the people off the land and now seem to want to commit Genocide. So, from my point of view there needs to be a more balanced story here.....
No, sorry, wrong addressee.

The shoa is Germany's fault and responsibility, not the Palestinians',

and expulsion from the Maghreb, from Iraq and Yemen is neither (btw are you aware of the fact that you are more Iraqi than a Palestinian would be, i.e. one could apply your simple logic stating: "Your fault, you Arab").


It might be interesting nevertheless to investigate about how those countries handle with their past, and one could claim that of course with regard to interaction and communication with those countries their past (and btw. present) is of importance,

but it's not at all regarding any relationship with the Palestinians.
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  #167  
Old 03.12.2012, 15:48
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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I beg your pardon?

In European media it is told all the time (and it's a good thing that it's done, also if I don't think it's a good idea to do so at 18.30), are you blind or don't you understand the languages?




No, sorry, wrong addressee.

The shoa is Germany's fault and responsibility, not the Palestinians',

and expulsion from the Maghreb, from Iraq and Yemen is neither (btw are you aware of the fact that you are more Iraqi than a Palestinian would be, i.e. one could apply your simple logic stating: "Your fault, you Arab").


It might be interesting nevertheless to investigate about how those countries handle with their past, and one could claim that of course with regard to interaction and communication with those countries their past (and btw. present) is of importance,

but it's not at all regarding any relationship with the Palestinians.

My goodness what an ignorant little soul you are. Germany was indeed responsible for the SHOA, during the war. However, the Palestinian leader Haj Amin Al Husseini was a guest of Hitler for 3 years during the war. He made nightly broadcasts to the arab world about continuing the final solution in that part of the world, he even went to recruit Bosnian Muslims for a special part of the SS. LOOK IT UP!

He also visited Iraq, to spread the message to the leaders about the "Jewish" problem, which directly resulted in the 1941 pogrom against Jews in Iraq. The East part of Jerusalem had more Jews than Palestinians at the time, and after the Jordanians invaded in 1948, many were cleared from their homes!

Arab and muslim countries will often talk of the Ummah, see themselves as on unit and want unification, so Jewish expulsion from other Muslim countries had a direct result of the creation of the state of Israel. Some went voluntarily to Israel to fulfil the Zionist dream, but the vast majority were thrown out.

You have a problem of two displaced people, one as a direct result of Arab/Muslim hatred towards the Jews. Until you acknowledge BOTH, you cannot move forward.

Last edited by Fidgety; 03.12.2012 at 15:59.
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  #168  
Old 03.12.2012, 18:57
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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My goodness what an ignorant little soul you are. Germany was indeed responsible for the SHOA, during the war. However, the Palestinian leader Haj Amin Al Husseini was a guest of Hitler for 3 years during the war. He made nightly broadcasts to the arab world about continuing the final solution in that part of the world, he even went to recruit Bosnian Muslims for a special part of the SS. LOOK IT UP!
...
This is common knowledge and no secret info.

However, it's the good old strawman's argument as one simply cannot be so stupid to make a whole community pay for the responsibility of one of its members (and even if it was a "leading" member, there was not such thing as a Shoa in the Mideast or Northern Africa, with the exception of Tunisia under German control).

Baruch Goldstein is a Jew, so all Jews a murderers? What analogy is that, sorry.


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He also visited Iraq, to spread the message to the leaders about the "Jewish" problem, which directly resulted in the 1941 pogrom against Jews in Iraq. The East part of Jerusalem had more Jews than Palestinians at the time, and after the Jordanians invaded in 1948, many were cleared from their homes!
...
I wrote that here before. We are talking one town (i.e. I-M, btw what was there in Hebron?); unrest, lootering and crimes against Jews in other countries are afterwards, when Husseini had mainly lost his influence.

Btw till he entered Braunschweig administration, Hitler was Austrian and not German. Would that mean for you that the Austrians are more responsible than the Germans? And do you think that Germans are responsible because Hitler was their leader or maybe because so many of them participated actively in the Shoa or became an instrument of that deadly killing machinery? Do you honestly see anything like that ever in Palestine?


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He also visited Iraq, to spread the message to the leaders about the "Jewish" problem, which directly resulted in the 1941 pogrom against Jews in Iraq. The East part of Jerusalem had more Jews than Palestinians at the time, and after the Jordanians invaded in 1948, many were cleared from their homes!
...
Again, not untrue. But why exactly do you think a Palestinian from Galilee or the Central district could be responsible for that?


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Arab and muslim countries will often talk of the Ummah, see themselves as on unit and want unification, ...
...
And you fall for that old (and failed, not that there wasn't any try) myth?


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... so Jewish expulsion from other Muslim countries had a direct result of the creation of the state of Israel. Some went voluntarily to Israel to fulfil the Zionist dream, but the vast majority were thrown out.
...
Tell that to Moroccan, Algerian, Tunisian, Syrian, Iraqi and Yeminite leaders.

What's the point with the Palestinians?


It's like you were saying the Germans are responsible for the Shoa, they speak a Germanic language and anglo-saxon cultural background is common with UK and all the Commonwealth so let's punish UK and USA for it. Btw. they are quite all protestants.


Terrible generalizations you are offering here, unhealthy and right out fallacious.
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  #169  
Old 23.12.2012, 23:56
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

so much for the ceasefire: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/163471
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  #170  
Old 24.12.2012, 09:48
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

Does it count as breaking the ceasefire if the rocket was aimed at israel but fell short?because i dont think this is the first. there were reports of missle attempts a few weeks ago.
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  #171  
Old 24.12.2012, 10:23
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Re: Crisis in Gaza

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Does it count as breaking the ceasefire if the rocket was aimed at israel but fell short?because i dont think this is the first. there were reports of missle attempts a few weeks ago.
I would think it is a question of intent rather than result.
If you try to shoot somebody & the gun fails to fire then is it still attempted murder?
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