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  #21  
Old 08.12.2012, 21:33
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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Big companies don't pay tax in countries where they don't make a profit.
And there are many legal ways of not making profit in the UK but in other countries for legal tax optimization, which Mr Chowdhuri really wants to hear about, quod erat demonstrandum.
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  #22  
Old 08.12.2012, 21:39
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

I shall rise way above these very stupid comments from Economisto and DB. Who clearly want to stir trouble here- as confirmed in 47 pages of EF bashing and 'tips on how to stir on EF' (posted by Caprican/Economisto/Chapps) somewhere else. Which is of course the only reason they have chosen to come back, sadly.

'Ways to effectively stir the pot on EF:

1. Post a complaint about Switzerland

2. Post a complaint about "the bloody English"
3. Attack someone for posting any sort of complaint
4. Post an advert for something with no price.
5. Criticise everything about an advert, especially the price. Provide a link for where a totally different product may be bought in a different country for a slightly lower price.
6. Call someone racist when they were only disparaging an ethnicity, nationality or religion.
7. Attack "some" of the mods but always say there are one or two that you really like. Keeps em guessing.'

Page 45, post 881/


Our Bengladeshi students loved all the trips I organised to Brick Lane, to compensate for the fact they were not allowed, or couldn't afford, our foreign exchange trips. And we had plenty of Halal food when we cooked up massive feasts for Eid every year.

Hard to deny that our comprehensive school did have all the children from the large council estate which surrounded the school (yes apart from green fields on one side) and the Bangladeshi children- from Silhet, a very poor region of Bangladesh- with the majority of parents being unable to read or write in either language, and with girls who went on holiday and never returned, for reasons stated before.

Personal experience is very relevant here - you have to experience it to know it. It is true that we had good Ofsted reports, because we had fabulous teachers, totally and utterly dedicated to get the best from every child.

You have not responded btw - why is it perfectly fine for big corporation to not pay tax in the UK - but not OK for our Government to give teachers a decent salary and conditions to educate our children for a difficult future. Isn't that one of the most important thing for the success of any society?

If those big Corporations paid tax as they should, our NHS and education system would be in a much better position to achieve what is desperately needed.

PS Edit It is not the first time you've used that insult here, in the same way- absolutely against forum rules (and of course worse when you were a Moderator here). When I left my Senior teaching post to go back to mainscale, as I preferred teaching to being an administrator - I enrolled in a Forensic linguistic course. Fascinating it was - and it has never let me down on Forums and multiple users - this was the last proof I needed of your identity Economisto, thanks.

Last edited by Odile; 08.12.2012 at 22:35.
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  #23  
Old 08.12.2012, 21:42
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

I don't see how you having taught at a crap school or whatever justifies automatic pay rises. The world's a crappy place but in most professions pay rises are related to more than just turning up.
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  #24  
Old 08.12.2012, 21:47
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

It's not about 'just turning up - it is about having more years experience in your profession, linked with professional regular assessment. And it was not a crap school - it was a brilliant school that did its very best in often difficult circumstances, all the academic kids being creamed off by the Catholic school and the private Grammar School.

BTW why not change your name to your old one - it would be easier for many to understand 'where you come from' Economisto.

I've added the thread posted by Caprican for the purpose of EF stirring since I was called a liar. Would not normally do that, but hey ho!

Last edited by Odile; 08.12.2012 at 22:26.
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  #25  
Old 08.12.2012, 21:49
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

Look, Odile, I'm sure you were a wonderful, devoted teacher for a very long time, and more power to you, but that's utterly beside the point. There are lots and lots of very dedicated, devoted and hard working people all over Britain who would rather like to get a free payrise just for turning up for work, and to whom it's pretty hard to justify endless council tax rises so that one small group of workers can enjoy such a privilege.

Nobody is forced to become a teacher. Nobody is obliged to remain in teaching if it isn't to his taste. If the salary isn't enough (and I don't see why it shouldn't be - I was on nearly 40k back in 2005, which was plenty more than most people earn), if the holidays aren't long enough, if the hours are too long, if the children are too rowdy, there are other jobs.Most of which are crap, of course, compared to teaching - but they exist and any teacher is free to apply for them.

So, please. How can you justify the continued existence of such a profoundly unfair use of council tax payers' money, when so many other people work so very hard, earn so very little, and pay so much council tax?

(Oh, and if the school had such good Ofsted reports, why did it go into special measures in 2007?)
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  #26  
Old 08.12.2012, 21:51
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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It's not about 'just turning up - it is about having more years experience in your profession, linked with professional regular assessment.
But because it's really hard to get fired, having more years in your profession is just turning up.

Now I understand many teachers do far more than just turn up. In that case, as with other highly nuanced jobs, pay rises and bonuses will be linked to carefully assessed performance. And because there's just one pie, those teachers will get more serious pay rises and bonuses to properly reflect their talent and dedication. Education will never be where we need it to be as long as teaching is thought of as another job for life to coast through. We need to attract people with real ambition and competitive spirit, like we do with professions like medicine.
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  #27  
Old 08.12.2012, 21:51
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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'tips on how to stir on EF' somewhere else.
This is another lie, by the way. You're beginning to embarrass yourself, Odile.

Re: sneaky edit. Link or it never happened.
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  #28  
Old 08.12.2012, 21:53
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

I always here this from teachers, however it looks like full time pay for a part time job. The gold plated teachers pension will pay out more in retirement benefits than the teacher earned during their career . If you don't believe me see how much a 2/3 salary index linked pension actually costs to buy!

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All the above already done by Ofsted. Including interviewing children.

So UK can afford for huge corporations to pay no or little tax in UK, but can't afford to pay teachers a little extra for seniority and experience (within regular Ofsted assessment).

The UK can afford to have poorly paid and respected teachers- with the resulting poorly educated kids which turn into unemployable adults. Great progress indeed. Hurrah.

When I suggested to my daughters they could opt for teaching, they laughed so much and asked if I was totally mad. They grew up seeing the long hours put in preparation, marking, reports, etc. They'd seen their mum suffering from exhaustion - and sometimes in tears of despair. And they'd seen the salary - apart from the few years I was a Senior teacher in charge of 3 departments (I went back to mainscale after a few years as I wanted to teach, not be a manager). Our oldest works hard as a partner of her financial firm, and earns more than 10X the salary of a teacher- but she says teaching classes of 32+ teenagers must be 20X more stressful).

Pachyderm said it so well - easy to assess sales and manufacture - but teaching is much more complex, and subjective. Ofsted already does that as well as possible. Give me one country btw where teachers are not partly paid on seniority and experience, as well as performance?
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  #29  
Old 08.12.2012, 21:54
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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I always here this from teachers, however it looks like full time pay for a part time job. The gold plated teachers pension will pay out more in retirement benefits than the teacher earned during their career . If you don't believe me see how much a 2/3 salary index linked pension actually costs to buy!
Thank the lord the days of this insanity are truly numbered.
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  #30  
Old 08.12.2012, 21:55
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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But absolutely fine for big corporations not to pay tax in the UK?
How is that right? And why should the UK put up with it?
Schools don't pay any tax at all, even private schools claim to be charities. If you don't have to pay tax, then the employes get more money, rather like Starbucks till yesterday!
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  #31  
Old 08.12.2012, 22:00
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

The alternative was a dilemma. Either very low automatic raise based on experience (which is not nothing but can apply to any job) or a higher potential raise based on performances. The more intelligent people in education understood very quickly that measuring good teaching like in any business would mean to elaborate criteria to base the grade of achievement related to defined goals, which implies definitions of goals in the first place but which "wiederum" implies that there was a measurable achievement even before the first place etc. It's endless and we haven't started to even think about what measurement means in education or even what good teaching is "überhaupt".

Hence the situation : experience must be good in some way for teachers too s let's put that into the equation and stop there because the rest gives headaches to everybody who start thinking professionally and seriously. In a pub, of course, those questions don't lead to headaches, we can agree on that.
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  #32  
Old 08.12.2012, 22:12
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

I love it. Odile gets personal, bragging about her own work experience and demanding to know about mine, I point out a couple of porkies and I'm the bad guy.

Faltrad and Pachyderm have both offered some interesting posts explaining how performance related pay rises may be difficult to implement for teachers, but does anyone else have any defence of the 'pay rise for turning up' situation that has burdened the council tax payers of England and Wales for the past few decades? Preferably without paragraph after paragraph of whining and false claims?
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  #33  
Old 08.12.2012, 22:16
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

In particular, I'd be curious to know if Nschulzi has anything intelligent to contribute to the thread (or any thread, for that matter...)
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  #34  
Old 08.12.2012, 22:18
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

OMG, I left the other side to get away from all this self-righteous, pompous crap ...

I think we have all agreed that teachers' salary increments should be performance related and we have also agreed that, in reality, this may be a bit difficult to implement.

Edit: happy DB?
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  #35  
Old 08.12.2012, 22:21
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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OMG, I left the other side to get away from all this self-righteous, pompous crap ...
That's the best thing I've read all day!

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I think we have all agreed that teachers' salary increments should be performance related and we have also agreed that, in reality, this may be a bit difficult to implement.
Er, no we haven't. Have you actually read any of the thread, or did you just go through it clicking the 'groan' button?
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  #36  
Old 08.12.2012, 22:22
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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Er, no we haven't. Have you actually read any of the thread, or did you just go through it clicking the 'groan' button?
Erm...isn't that what you're meant to do?
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  #37  
Old 08.12.2012, 22:25
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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Erm...isn't that what you're meant to do?
There is no groan button your forum, which is probably why you don't understand how it should be used!
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  #38  
Old 08.12.2012, 22:26
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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There is no groan button your forum, which is probably why you don't understand how it should be used!
I don't know what any of this means but I've never groaned anyone.
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  #39  
Old 08.12.2012, 22:29
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

Calling somebody a TWAT (and it is not the first time) is a lot worse than groaning, perhaps, and totally against the Forum rules.
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  #40  
Old 08.12.2012, 22:31
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

Current teachers (here as well as in the UK) have been getting periodic raises right along. Now you go in and tell them they suddenly have to pass loads of meaningful professional assessments etc. in order to keep getting those. Frankly you'll have a riot on your hands. They'll cite the same things Faltrad did above, the thorniness of setting measurable standards without taking away teachers' professional autonomy. And they won't be completely wrong in that so it's very hard to argue them down.

In the circumstances, the almost irresistible temptation for school admin (who need to keep staff turnover low as there are chronic shortages in the 'harder' subjects) is to make these tests more or less a formality... satisfy the cantonal requirements on paper and keep handing out pay raises all round exactly as before. If pressed they will justify the school's high promotion rate by saying that 'of course all our teachers are good, we only hire the best'... and in the absence of meaningful assessment (i.e. assessment that's hard enough a significant number of people fail it) that's hard to refute. The most you can say is that it looks suspicious: sure, one school might have incredible ability to attract and retain top teachers, but every school in the canton?

I don't know the UK school system but nothing I've read or heard leads me to believe that the same pressures would operate much differently there. So while this reform may look like a step in the right direction or wrong direction or whatever, in practical terms it's basically meaningless. Just more paperwork - as if school heads didn't have enough.
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