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  #61  
Old 08.12.2012, 23:24
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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Yep, I knew ONE of those- the Head of Department and head of the exam board for GCE's - parents thought he was wonderful because of the results - and yet he couldn't speak French (Head of Languages, French teacher). He used to teach all the vocab and grammatical structures in the exam the week before, as he was one of the people who set the exam.

Inspectorate got him sacked - and like all the bad teachers I've known, he e ended up teaching in a minor private school He was the only fraudster I met in the 5 schools I taught at- and just shows that results per se are not a good indication of a good teacher.

BTW the basic salary for a teacher is 21.588. The absolute max for a main scale teacher at the end of career is 36.756.
How many GOOD and INSPIRATIONAL teachers will stay int eh profession at under 22.000? I certainly wouldn't. Now, that is not important as far as the teachers are concerned - but with grand-children in the UK, I dream and hope they will have good and inspirational teachers to teach them. And at 22.000 how likely is that?

The minimum for a Head teacher is 37.461 - which is why they have a HUGE difficulty currently to get people to apply- as the responsibilities are ENORMOUS. How many Senior managers with a university education would accept such a salary for such a level of responsibility. And the upper max is 105.097- that is for a largest comprehensive schools with a big community school attached. How many Senior managers in the commercial sectors would accept this level of responsibility? Again,, the State Sector is unable at the moment to get good applicants for these posts, partly due to low level salary- and mainly due to the vast responsibilities.
Average earnings in the UK are roughly 25K, so those are good salaries, when you add the value of the pension they are FANTASTIC rates of pay.

FWIW Head teachers in Academies run by http://www.arkonline.org/education can earn 150k, so perhaps input & cash from the private sector is the way forward.
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  #62  
Old 08.12.2012, 23:24
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

Wait, so now we're surveying people with no first-hand knowledge of what this teacher is like in the classroom?

Surveying students or parents is problematic for the simple reason that it tends to turn it into a popularity contest, nothing more. It can be one component of feedback but really should not be the main basis for deciding who gets pay raises and who doesn't, much less who stays and who goes.
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Old 08.12.2012, 23:28
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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What do you suggest? Introducing a "manager" for every ten teacher (of whome many will work part time)? That's what I'd call wasting taxpayer's money....
Nup just employ competent heads, if they cant assess who reports to them get rid of them and replace them with someone who can!
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  #64  
Old 08.12.2012, 23:32
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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Wait, so now we're surveying people with no first-hand knowledge of what this teacher is like in the classroom?
Not sure I agree, from the age of 8 I could have given you a spot on report on every teacher I ever had.
The problem with private schools is many of the teachers are losers as best, as Woody said in Annie Hall, "if you cant do you teach, if you cant teach, teach PE.
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  #65  
Old 08.12.2012, 23:37
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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Nup just employ competent heads, if they cant assess who reports to them get rid of them and replace them with someone who can!
It must be quite easy to see how the teachers perform with each student year after year. Case in point, aged 14 in Chemistry I got the 2nd highest end of year result. At 16 I got Unclassified at 'O' level.
I had complained that the teacher was an idiot, he was very senior & had been in the school for over 21 years......
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Old 08.12.2012, 23:42
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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Not sure I agree, from the age of 8 I could have given you a spot on report on every teacher I ever had.
The problem with private schools is many of the teachers are losers as best, as Woody said in Annie Hall, "if you cant do you teach, if you cant teach, teach PE.
"No firsthand experience" was in response to Wallabies who suggested that assessment should be done by surveying the kids' parents.

But I'm interested in the claim that your assessment of your teachers was always "spot on". I'm not picking on you here, but "spot on" in whose estimation - your own? That of your classmates? Did you at least occasionally have good teachers whom nobody liked, or bad teachers whom everyone liked? If not, then it seems quite possible your eight -year-old self (and classmates) had trouble distinguishing good/bad from popular/unpopular. Which is completely normal at that age, but is also kind of my point.
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  #67  
Old 08.12.2012, 23:42
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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Nup just employ competent heads, if they cant assess who reports to them get rid of them and replace them with someone who can!
I think it could proof to be quite difficult to find sombodey who is able to truely judge the performance of people he only sees in action for a few hours a year (he can only spend a certain share of his time in the classrooms of his subordinate teachers)?
What you want can only be realized if you introduce numerous "subheads". I'm however not sure, wether the resulting administrative overhead really is in the taxpayer's interest.
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Old 08.12.2012, 23:47
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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I think it could proof to be quite difficult to find sombodey who is able to truely judge the performance of people he only sees in action for a few hours a year (he can only spend a certain share of his time in the classrooms of his subordinate teachers)?
What you want can only be realized if you introduce numerous "subheads". I'm however not sure, wether the resulting administrative overhead really is in the taxpayer's interest.
So its in the taxpayers interest to have declining standards of education such as quoted by fatmanfilms. The heads need to realise they are not a protected breed of non performing figureheads
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  #69  
Old 08.12.2012, 23:51
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...?

Yes indeed. These UK teachers and local authority workers living high on the hog in their sinecures, need a dose of reality. I'm spittin' mad, me. Let these inner city shirkers come out here to Switzerland for a while and try spending some time struggling to have a life around Lake Zurich or Lake Geneva, or trying to survive in some bloody fairytale village with its tedious, snowy Alpine views. That'll teach them a thing or two about just how privileged and fortunate they are.

Grrrr.

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Old 08.12.2012, 23:56
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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OMG, I left the other side to get away from all this self-righteous, pompous crap ...

I think we have all agreed that teachers' salary increments should be performance related and we have also agreed that, in reality, this may be a bit difficult to implement.

Edit: happy DB?
he he! Whilst enjoying the general debate here on the merits, or otherwise, of teachers being appraised for salary hikes ... simply by dint of my having made the above comment, I have received the following message from ET (even though I hadn't actually mentioned them by name and haven't posted there for at least a week):

You have been banned for the following reason:
For spreading malicious and possibly racist hate speech
Date the ban will be lifted: Never

Really quite extraordinary that one can be banned from a forum for no reason whatsoever and without even contributing!! Yet, in DB's immortal words; no great loss.

Last edited by NSchulzi; 09.12.2012 at 00:31.
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  #71  
Old 08.12.2012, 23:58
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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"No firsthand experience" was in response to Wallabies who suggested that assessment should be done by surveying the kids' parents.

But I'm interested in the claim that your assessment of your teachers was always "spot on". I'm not picking on you here, but "spot on" in whose estimation - your own? That of your classmates? Did you at least occasionally have good teachers whom nobody liked, or bad teachers whom everyone liked? If not, then it seems quite possible your eight -year-old self (and classmates) had trouble distinguishing good/bad from popular/unpopular. Which is completely normal at that age, but is also kind of my point.
At 8, I was able to tell you who the good teachers, even then I was able to make up my own mind!
There were some totally useless teachers that were 'nice' & everybody liked, however we all knew were useless!
There were good teachers who were hated, but they were respected for being good teachers.
Being Dyslexic, I was not the easiest pupil, very good at maths but could not read or write.
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Old 08.12.2012, 23:58
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

There are excellent teachers, there are medicore teachers and there are poor teachers.

The excellent teachers devote so much of their time and soul to the job they often end up with a burn out.

The medicore teachers swim along, doing a good enough job while still maintaining their sanity. They've learned to set priorities and have developed an instinct on how to deal with the revolutionists and beaurocrats while still teaching children the basics while keeping a well-managed classroom.

The poor teachers quite often leave due to the many telephone calls the parents make to the teacher's superior.

I believe a sound education is detrimental to the world's future. The longer a teacher teaches, the more money they should make. An experienced teacher is worth their weight in gold.
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  #73  
Old 09.12.2012, 00:07
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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There were some totally useless teachers that were 'nice' & everybody liked, however we all knew were useless!
There were good teachers who were hated, but they were respected for being good teachers.
Those times are gone, I'm afraid: you were able to distinguish emotional and rational judgment. Not obvious anymore nowadays, and not only among students...
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Old 09.12.2012, 14:52
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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Why would a French teacher need to speak French? Why would students? Kids need 9 As at GCSE in order to drop 6 subjects and get three As at A Level and then drop two of those and get a First at university. I'll rather take a guy who gets me an A thanks.
Priceless and the best post yet.

So now let's extrapolate teacher assessment criteria from this one
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Old 09.12.2012, 15:11
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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Why would a French teacher need to speak French? Why would students? Kids need 9 As at GCSE in order to drop 6 subjects and get three As at A Level and then drop two of those and get a First at university. I'll rather take a guy who gets me an A thanks.
Why need children to go to school anyway? It would be much cheaper to send them to work as soon as they can walk, wouldn't it?
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Old 09.12.2012, 16:56
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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Average earnings in the UK are roughly 25K, so those are good salaries, when you add the value of the pension they are FANTASTIC rates of pay.

FWIW Head teachers in Academies run by http://www.arkonline.org/education can earn 150k, so perhaps input & cash from the private sector is the way forward.

Average wage for professionals with 4 year Degrees - are you sure?

My point is about education, not teachers. We want well-educated, professional teachers- to teach our young people and prepare them for the future, don't we? What sort of teachers are we going to get if they are such low wages? Great Britain and its youngsters, its future, deserve better. Nobody does force anybody to become teachers, as someone said- and quality recruitment is already very difficult. Again, in many areas it is impossible to recruit Head teachers. Will undermining the profession further really help. I don't think so.
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Old 09.12.2012, 17:02
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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Why need children to go to school anyway? It would be much cheaper to send them to work as soon as they can walk, wouldn't it?
No, because they'd be poor quality workers. They need a place to learn a few things and age a bit before we put them to work. The masses are certainly not there to learn French, art and gymnastics.
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  #78  
Old 09.12.2012, 17:03
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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Average wage for professionals with 4 year Degrees - are you sure?
Yup. 26k
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/ja...-salaries-rise
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  #79  
Old 09.12.2012, 17:17
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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Average wage for professionals with 4 year Degrees - are you sure?
Why do people who go to university expect to earn more than Average? They did not pay for any of that Education (until very recently), historically provided by tax payers money, i.e. their peers who did not go to university, paid the cost of their education!

University seemed to be one long party, certainly for my friends who went to Cambridge, my girlfriend at the time did not go to a single lecture one term, she spent most of the time in my flat in London, she ended up with a 2.1.

Funny thing is, I left school at 16, set up my own company & earned more than 50,000 in 1983. Of course all my friends were still at university, somewhat pissed off that I had bought a flat & a Porsche 911 by age 21.

With regard to salaries, you can double a state teachers pay to take account of the pension-
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Old 09.12.2012, 17:20
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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Why do hand wringing, condescending lib dems who go to university expect to earn more than Average?
Ftfy..........
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