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  #81  
Old 09.12.2012, 17:22
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

Removing the current restrictive "one salary fits all" regime and giving heads the freedom to set their own salaries according to what applicants have to offer should attract quality applicants, not discourage them.

Got a shortage of decent maths teachers? Offer a bigger salary to anyone with a good maths degree. It's how recruitment works in the private sector. No reason why it can't work in state schools.
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  #82  
Old 09.12.2012, 17:31
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

So you pay extra for a mediocre teacher in a shortage subject? And not pay excellent teachers in non-shortage subjects?

That will surely help motivation for the majority and not be divisive? One of the very best thing about teachers in the UK, is that they work as teams, for different subjects, but for pastoral matters too- and to keep a happy working team is paramount to success.

This was proposed a long time ago already. In our school, where I was Senior teacher, we decided that would not happen and that extra money would be only paid for jobs with a personal and job description, that people would have to apply for in the proper manner, to avoid 'jobs for the boys under the table'. Be it for pastoral matters, or specific subjects. Much better.

There is no 'one salary fits all' now - teachers can apply for many posts with extra responsibility now - as said, on pastoral, academic or administrative front. I went from main scale teacher, to second in department, to Head of Department, to Head of Faculty and senior management teacher - and back to mainscale teacher later with huge difference in salary as well as responsibility.

FMFilms - I only taught for 20 years, starting aged 32 as I went to Uni to qualify when our youngest started school. I certainly could not live on the pension I now draw, that is for sure (let alone in Switzerland ).
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  #83  
Old 09.12.2012, 17:40
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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Why do people who go to university expect to earn more than Average? They did not pay for any of that Education (until very recently), historically provided by tax payers money, i.e. their peers who did not go to university, paid the cost of their education
To do research?

You should not forget that the society needs (certain) university graduates. The opportunity costs of a university student are huge anyway. Thus I belief you should not make the students pay too much for their education as otherwise you end up with a system where not the ability of the student but the wealth of the parents decide about a student's education. Rather there should be a system put in place where a student's academic merits are the deciding factors of what schools he might go to.

Another problem with high university costs us that it can make a research career impossible, as it does not pay enough to pay back the depts one has amassed while studiing. This can not be in a societies interest.
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  #84  
Old 09.12.2012, 17:41
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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Got a shortage of decent maths teachers? Offer a bigger salary to anyone with a good maths degree.
Teacher shortage has little to do with salaries. It's more about working conditions and absence of climbing up any career ladder. Education will never ever be able to compete with private sector in maths/sciences where this mechanism is in place. That being said, I even know translators in Bern and Strasbourg who would never become language teachers for the same reasons, it is just less visible in languages with no teacher shortage (sometimes real shortage is solved by just stopping offering the language all together, they don't dare to do it with maths).

Law of supply and demand as only base for school politics would be very entertaining seen from the continent, so please proceed, we'll bring popcorn. If we like it, we promise to clap at the end and drink tea with milk for a week. Happy now?

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Thus I belief you should not make the students pay too much for their education as otherwise you end up with a system where not the ability of the student but the wealth of the parents decide about a student's education.
It is the open and explicit goal of some political parties to maintain the social stability of class system and/or other privileges status in society and they have no shame using school fees to get that through. Demanding academic selection only means to advocate the early streaming (Switzerland, Germany) and the surreal French "prépa" system. Both has been shocking the users of this forum for years. Are you sure you want to go down that route in here? Culturally speaking, financial success is evidence of academic competence for most people here. Don't ask me the logic behind it, I have no idea. I just respect other culture and don't discuss it, I tolerate.
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  #85  
Old 09.12.2012, 18:01
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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FMFilms - I only taught for 20 years, starting aged 32 as I went to Uni to qualify when our youngest started school. I certainly could not live on the pension I now draw, that is for sure (let alone in Switzerland ).
OK 20 years service equates to at least 1/3 final salary, index linked for like.

Very few private sector workers pension will be as high as 1/3 of final salary index linked for life.

You own outright your property in the UK, you also have a property in CH, something tells me your way better off than the average UK pensioner.
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  #86  
Old 09.12.2012, 18:10
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

Nothing to do with my teacher pension I can assure you
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  #87  
Old 09.12.2012, 19:17
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"Teachers should be paid more than they are now"

and

"Teachers' pay should be based on some kind of performance assessment"

are two separate propositions. We can discuss the merits of either one but if we keep them separate I really do think we might get further.

( I also can't see for the life of me how the details of anyone's personal finances are relevant here, any more than the relative crappiness of previous jobs people have held.)
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  #88  
Old 09.12.2012, 19:33
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

Regarding the assessment of teacher's performance there should be some clear measures introduced, shouldn't there? Just an example of my German classes I attended last year there were following criteria used:
- observation by language school designated body,
- feedback from students,
- satisfaction survey.

Analogically to system used in corporations, there are so called performance development appraisals or KPA's which are conducted twice a year. They merely serve as HR's trick to keep the folks on average scale (Gaussian redistribution). Frankly speaking, no one wants to see extreme cases i.e.under-performers and over-performers on the list since it would either have forced HR to undertake serious strickt measures against employee(s) (more work) or have effected salary increase/promotion. So to keep employees salaries within predifined brackets without serious impact on company's financies, average is always welcome.

The only effective way to get decent salary increase is either to have a good worker's union behind to fight for your right and get increase across the board for everyone (small increase) or to quit a job in favour of more competitive earnings (more significant increase).

As to the question of increases based on experience versus qualifications, personally I would be in favour of the latter one since I hold a PhD degree. Unfortunately, the reality is different and in industry the experience counts.
Well there is also a factor called politics in a workplace which defines your career ladder

I would propose average of it all to be used as criterion. Add experience to qualifications plus judge on looks, plus body BMI, candidate's age, his/her smile and social skills, feedback, peer review. Take arithmeticall average and here you come with new salary range for teachers
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  #89  
Old 09.12.2012, 19:50
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

In France for instance, teacher pay is very much based on qualifications + 'ancienneté' (years of teaching). And I think that is wrong, because there are so many with the top qualification who are totally hopeless at teaching - despite being very academically very clever. The ability to teach is overshadowed by qualification. If you do not have the Capes, you'll always be on a low salary, however good a teacher you are. If you have the Agreg, you automatically reach the top echelons- whether you have the ability to teach or not.

In the UK, salary is based partly on experience, and partly on how good you are as a teacher (with regular internal and external inspections). For instance Heads of Departments, or Head of Years (pastoral side) will be appointed for their great skills and proven ability to teach and lead. Whether they have a B.Ed or PGCE, or Masters, PhD - is pretty irrelevant. Much better I think.
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  #90  
Old 09.12.2012, 19:56
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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Regarding the assessment of teacher's performance there should be some clear measures introduced, shouldn't there? Just an example of my German classes I attended last year there were following criteria used:
- observation by language school designated body,
- feedback from students,
- satisfaction survey.

Analogically to system used in corporations, there are so called performance development appraisals or KPA's which are conducted twice a year. They merely serve as HR's trick to keep the folks on average scale (Gaussian redistribution). Frankly speaking, no one wants to see extreme cases i.e.under-performers and over-performers on the list since it would either have forced HR to undertake serious strickt measures against employee(s) (more work) or have effected salary increase/promotion. So to keep employees salaries within predifined brackets without serious impact on company's financies, average is always welcome.

The only effective way to get decent salary increase is either to have a good worker's union behind to fight for your right and get increase across the board for everyone (small increase) or to quit a job in favour of more competitive earnings (more significant increase).

As to the question of increases based on experience versus qualifications, personally I would be in favour of the latter one since I hold a PhD degree. Unfortunately, the reality is different and in industry the experience counts.
Well there is also a factor called politics in a workplace which defines your career ladder

I would propose average of it all to be used as criterion. Add experience to qualifications plus judge on looks, plus body BMI, candidate's age, his/her smile and social skills, feedback, peer review. Take arithmeticall average and here you come with new salary range for teachers
The UK needs an austerity drive, as private workers have seen salaries & pensions fall over the last 5 years, there is no reason at all to increase public workers salaries. A 25% cut in public worker salaries is actually whats needed to get back in line with reality, however it's unlikely any government has the balls to do that. Inflation will eventually fix the problem, of course there will be screams when LIBOR hits 10%.
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  #91  
Old 09.12.2012, 20:01
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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In France for instance, teacher pay is very much based on qualifications + 'ancienneté' (years of teaching). And I think that is wrong, because there are so many with the top qualification who are totally hopeless at teaching - despite being very academically very clever. The ability to teach is overshadowed by qualification. If you do not have the Capes, you'll always be on a low salary, however good a teacher you are. If you have the Agreg, you automatically reach the top echelons- whether you have the ability to teach or not.

In the UK, salary is based partly on experience, and partly on how good you are as a teacher (with regular internal and external inspections). For instance Heads of Departments, or Head of Years (pastoral side) will be appointed for their great skills and proven ability to teach and lead. Whether they have a B.Ed or PGCE, or Masters, PhD - is pretty irrelevant. Much better I think.
I suspect that French teachers receive a very much lower salary, than UK teachers.
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Old 09.12.2012, 20:03
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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If you do not have the Capes, you'll always be on a low salary, however good a teacher you are. If you have the Agreg, you automatically reach the top echelons- whether you have the ability to teach or not.
I really like you and support everything you do including baking but I have to correct here:
- If you don't have a Capes, you are not a teacher in the first place. Capes is a recruitment examination as such, linked with a point system that is too complex to explain here.
- If you have Agrégation, you are on a different pay scale with own "échelons".
- French teaching is about civil servant management by the minister of education itself, so nothing in common with teachers in the UK or Switzerland at all.
- French teachers must pass academic exams of such a level that even people who fail at it are highly desired in private economy in sought after fields. One puts it on the CV even when one fails because the one year preparation is a great academic asset as such.
- French teachers are paid at such a low level that they are saints in any religion.
- Until now, French schools are on the teachers' side, not the parents' side. Good or bad I don't know, but that qualifies as good working conditions for said teachers.
- The rest of the system is so exotic to anglo-culture that I strongly advise against talking about it here.

Sorry for the dry tone, that's French school style too.
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  #93  
Old 09.12.2012, 20:05
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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The UK needs an austerity drive, as private workers have seen salaries & pensions fall over the last 5 years, there is no reason at all to increase public workers salaries. A 25% cut in public worker salaries is actually whats needed to get back in line with reality, however it's unlikely any government has the balls to do that. Inflation will eventually fix the problem, of course there will be screams when LIBOR hits 10%.
IMHO, I hate to say it but the whole western world with EU inclusive need austerity drive nowadays (with exception to all those poor countries which have always had one by the nature of their miserable systems). Situation with teachers in the UK is just one example of it...
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Old 09.12.2012, 20:06
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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Analogically to system used in corporations, there are so called performance development appraisals or KPA's which are conducted twice a year. They merely serve as HR's trick to keep the folks on average scale (Gaussian redistribution). Frankly speaking, no one wants to see extreme cases i.e.under-performers and over-performers on the list since it would either have forced HR to undertake serious strickt measures against employee(s) (more work) or have effected salary increase/promotion. So to keep employees salaries within predifined brackets without serious impact on company's financies, average is always welcome.
It seems to me that you work for the wrong company! I always get good reviews, and I can't think of a year since I entered the workforce where I got less than a 10% raise. Low performers, on the other hand, tend not to get raises or in extreme cases even fired. That's performance review done right.

Like any other task, doing performance reviews correctly requires training. Administrators (or senior teachers? Some sort of peer review) need to be trained in objective goal setting and measuring. If a teacher typically sees high test scores and poor feedback from students, the reasons should be explored (is she gaming the system pre-test or just unfriendly but teaching well?) and goals set based on deficiencies identified. There is no one-size-fits-all approach; you need to target goals to each teacher's needs.

It's hard work, but that's the case in any industry. I have to judge the performance of people who don't even report to me in many cases, and a well-defined process makes that possible.
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Old 09.12.2012, 20:08
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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It seems to me that you work for the wrong company! I always get good reviews, and I can't think of a year since I entered the workforce where I got less than a 10% raise. Low performers, on the other hand, tend not to get raises or in extreme cases even fired. That's performance review done right.

Like any other task, doing performance reviews correctly requires training. Administrators (or senior teachers? Some sort of peer review) need to be trained in objective goal setting and measuring. If a teacher typically sees high test scores and poor feedback from students, the reasons should be explored (is she gaming the system pre-test or just unfriendly but teaching well?) and goals set based on deficiencies identified. There is no one-size-fits-all approach; you need to target goals to each teacher's needs.

It's hard work, but that's the case in any industry. I have to judge the performance of people who don't even report to me in many cases, and a well-defined process makes that possible.
Perhaps schools should follow the Goldman Scahs model of sacking the weakest 10% of the workforce every year.
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Old 09.12.2012, 20:15
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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It seems to me that you work for the wrong company! I always get good reviews, and I can't think of a year since I entered the workforce where I got less than a 10% raise. Low performers, on the other hand, tend not to get raises or in extreme cases even fired. That's performance review done right.

Like any other task, doing performance reviews correctly requires training. Administrators (or senior teachers? Some sort of peer review) need to be trained in objective goal setting and measuring. If a teacher typically sees high test scores and poor feedback from students, the reasons should be explored (is she gaming the system pre-test or just unfriendly but teaching well?) and goals set based on deficiencies identified. There is no one-size-fits-all approach; you need to target goals to each teacher's needs.

It's hard work, but that's the case in any industry. I have to judge the performance of people who don't even report to me in many cases, and a well-defined process makes that possible.
Would you care sharing (privately) where such green pastures exist? I still entertain my five year old salary figure until today...

Btw: That teacher with poor satisfaction survey didn't continue with teaching classes next semester. Speculations she either got fired or degraded to teaching lower level. Perhaps she will quit to start her own private school soon.

The whole teaching business is very subjective, whether it comes to relationship between teacher and student and vice versa. Reminds me of these days when we use to compete in a classroom for preferential treatment. Teacher also had her favorite pupils.

In industry, you have to disconnect yourself from emotions and always focus on technical nature of work. It might not concern nepotism and favourism driven companies though. It always amazes me when all these sweet looking PA's always leave boss's office so happy?
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Old 09.12.2012, 20:19
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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Administrators (or senior teachers? Some sort of peer review) need to be trained in objective goal setting and measuring.
This is where the trouble starts. I respect you very much and the idea is just common sense, but that's not good enough in real life. It IS being done, and it doesn't work because education is far more complex than non-participant in education can imagine. Yes, I've just implied that one knows more about education when one works inside a school. There are so many articles to be written under the title "Private Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real school world..."
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Old 09.12.2012, 20:22
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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Would you care sharing (privately) where such green pastures exist? I still entertain my five year old salary figure until today...
What he is actually saying is he signed on the dotted line for less than he was worth at the time!
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Old 09.12.2012, 20:23
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

Ahahaha Faltrad - baking? Not very often I have to say. There are 1000s of people who teach classes in France who do not have the Capes, and are as you say, not real teachers as such. So yes, most have the Capes, and the elite the Agreg- what I was trying to describe is the fact that teachers are paid on qualification rather than ability to teach- which to me is not a good system of performance evaluation. Having the Agreg does not a good teacher make.

Same in sport for instance. Ski Teachers in France are paid according to their ability to win ski races. Which is ludicrous - as that does not give them the skills and ability to TEACH.
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Old 09.12.2012, 20:30
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

I have not read all posts but here are my thoughts.

1. I would not want to be a teacher in the UK. I was a peripatetic music teacher for a couple of years and saw what these kids did to people.

2. Many of the teachers I came across should not have been teaching.

3. You can't rate the teacher on the performance of the kids.

4. Some teachers are fantastic, dedicated professionals. Unfortunately they didn't work at my school when I was there.
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