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  #121  
Old 10.12.2012, 09:05
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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Same as one evaluates any other employee's performance. Some managers are good at it, some managers are terrible at it.
Would those be the same managers that were making your life hell and nearly driving you out of teaching a couple of months back?
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  #122  
Old 10.12.2012, 10:14
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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I'm actually all for paying good teachers significantly more than we currently do.
Just tell us what a good teacher is.
We'll see if your insight is better than mine. Perhaps the links I gave is just crap from Oregon university from a guy who has no insight in other professions too, I don't know.

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I'm sorry, Faltrad, but you apparently lack insight into the difficulties of other professions, which was DB's point from the beginning: teaching should be treated like any other profession and raises should be given based on performance, not duration of employment.
Don't be sorry for your opinions! I am telling you that it doesn't work and can't work by definition. But you don't have to believe me. I am aware of the fact that beliefs can be so strong there is nothing to say or do to change them. I don't even try, no worry.
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  #123  
Old 10.12.2012, 11:11
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

And as explained above, with the ski instructors comments, the concept of a good teacher varies from one country to another- for all sorts of reasons. So do exams for students btw, the French Bac gives excellent marks for very different skills to the English A'Level (where in the UK 50% go to oral and aural (listening) skills - and practically none in France).
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  #124  
Old 10.12.2012, 12:24
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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Would those be the same managers that were making your life hell and nearly driving you out of teaching a couple of months back?
I don't think public policy should be determined by individual cases, do you?
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  #125  
Old 10.12.2012, 13:06
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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I don't think public policy should be determined by individual cases, do you?
Nothing individual here, teachers all have or had such people above in the administration. You obviously talked about it openly, I didn't and others don't either but that doesn't mean you are that individual a case.

For semantic's sake: I understood here individual=isolated.
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  #126  
Old 10.12.2012, 13:09
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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Nothing individual here, employees all have or had such people above in the administration.
Fixed that for you.

Again, there is nothing unique or exceptional about teachers.
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  #127  
Old 10.12.2012, 13:26
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

i think teachers are probably actually severely underpaid. on the one hand, this is a bad thing for the teachers. on the other hand, it is a good thing in terms of access to education for all.
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  #128  
Old 10.12.2012, 13:33
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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i think teachers are probably actually severely underpaid.
That's a common myth, but untrue. Teachers in the United Kingdom earn pretty decent salaries compared to most people. They're unlikely to ever be millionaires, but there's nothing wrong with a starting salary of more than 20k, with the possibility to earn nearly 40k without even thinking about taking on management responsibilities. I recently read that some heads in some of the recently established academies are earning as much as 150k a year.

Not to mention that twelve weeks of paid leave a year gives ample time to work on other projects, find seasonal work or whatever.

EDIT: here's a link to the teachers' pay scale (England and Wales) so you can see for yourself: http://www.education.gov.uk/get-into...ry-scales.aspx
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  #129  
Old 10.12.2012, 13:35
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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i think teachers are probably actually severely underpaid. on the one hand, this is a bad thing for the teachers. on the other hand, it is a good thing in terms of access to education for all.
Too late to cry over spilled milk. You choose your profession wise and you need to deal with reality. If you for better salaries banking and insurance sector are way to go or private school teaching.

Public sector is a bit like servitude - sad reality. You do it from love and dedicate life to masses expecting nothing much in return.

I also don't feel like I landed optimum career. If I could turn back the clock I would have made slightly different choices....
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  #130  
Old 10.12.2012, 13:41
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

As said, my concern is not for the teachers as such- but about the knock on effect onto the education of our youngsters (my grand-children for instance). If the teaching profession is continually undermined and people see the profession as underpaid, undervalued, under respected- then who will become teachers. The best, or the worst?

I do not feel that undermining teachers will lead to better education. Performance checks are already clearly in place.
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  #131  
Old 10.12.2012, 13:43
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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That's a common myth, but untrue. Teachers in the United Kingdom earn pretty decent salaries compared to most people. They're unlikely to ever be millionaires, but there's nothing wrong with a starting salary of more than 20k, with the possibility to earn nearly 40k without even thinking about taking on management responsibilities. I recently read that some heads in some of the recently established academies are earning as much as 150k a year.

Not to mention that twelve weeks of paid leave a year gives ample time to work on other projects, find seasonal work or whatever.
i didn't mean to say that they are badly paid. just underpaid.

in essence, the state schools system as a whole is a monopsony which keeps teacher wages down. private schools shows what teachers could potentially earn.

in the end, i think teaching is somewhat like healthcare - with unregulated healthcare, you can extract huge premiums because people will pay whatever it takes to stay alive. in the same way, education is seen as important and people will pay a lot for this (not to the same extent as their lives, but in a way, education can determine their future lives).

now of course, the barriers to becoming a teacher are much lower than getting a triple heart bypass operation, so maybe the supply side would be enough to keep wages in check...
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  #132  
Old 10.12.2012, 14:10
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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Again, there is nothing unique or exceptional about teachers.
Again, I never said there was: I said one can't understand it by looking at it with private sector beliefs, it's an extremely complex administration. The difference is not clear to everybody but it is to me and frankly, to people I work with too. You know, the ones I do the teacher evaluation with...

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I do not feel that undermining teachers will lead to better education.
This is already the case in subjects with more alternative careers for the same qualifications. And this is now also the case between countries :
- German teachers lurking on Switzerland,
- English speaking teachers lurking on international schools,
- uneven attractiveness within a given system between education branches or even just middle school / high school,
- French teachers marrying each other in order to get more points and have a hugely greater chance of getting sent to a school where army would not be more useful than pedagogy...

It's endless. The best teachers with highest language competence go to European institutions or in Switzerland lurk at UN and Bern. Same in sports where the more motivated and creative minds enter tourism business and free time health business for better quality of life with or without more money. But don't expect people who define themselves first as taxpayers in an debate about education to change their priorities, what ever that means for actual education. They don't believe us whatever we say, such a debate is fun but "sans objet" as we say in French. It's fine, I enjoy the fun, get hated by people who hated me before this debate and practice my English in a fun way. I have nothing to lose - and I am already being evaluated as a teacher in a system that doesn't fall for the fallacies exposed in the extracontinental world and even the Scandinavians found that I was a good teacher, so I'm really fine and happy. And teacher.
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Last edited by Faltrad; 10.12.2012 at 14:26.
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  #133  
Old 10.12.2012, 14:40
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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] with unregulated healthcare, you can extract huge premiums because people will pay whatever it takes to stay alive.
I don't think that is true. If you have enough providers and competition, there's no reason for that to happen.

In fact if you look at unregulated healthcare (e.g. laser eye surgery in the US) you see prices being very competitive and coming down with time and innovation, completely at odds with the regulated healthcare market.

It's the heavily regulated markets with huge state subsidies, lack of pricing information and disconnection between the payer and the beneficiary where prices typically soar.
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  #134  
Old 10.12.2012, 14:54
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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If the teaching profession is continually undermined and people see the profession as underpaid, undervalued, under respected- then who will become teachers. The best, or the worst?
Maybe I got the wrong end of the stick, but I thought you were arguing a few pages back that teaching (or at least teaching in rough schools in the UK) is already underpaid and under-respected.

So who in your opinion does it currently attract, the best or the worst?

(My guess would be that like every other career it attracts some of each. and will continue to do so, as people choose their careers for wildly varying reasons, not all of which have much to do with salary.)
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  #135  
Old 10.12.2012, 15:00
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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i didn't mean to say that they are badly paid. just underpaid.
Take into account their pensions. As far as I know a full-career pension is around 31k/year, index-linked.

You'd need about 800k pounds in your pension pot to buy such an annuity on the open market, if you work for the private sector.

Public sector pensions in the UK are immensely valuable, and 4/5th of them are unfunded (i.e. paid for through taxing the private sector).

The idea of automatically paying someone more simply because of time, in a job which is more or less guaranteed for life, is absurd.

Both of my parents are teachers. They think that teaching is a stressful, hard job. After years doing it they simply don't realise how great is for them to have essentially total job security, relatively few working hours and fairly flexible time, topped by plenty of holidays. They take it for granted.

I am convinced that neither could put up with the usual 9am-6pm/21 days holidays private sector job, they'd find it horrifyingly constraining. Nor could they do without the guaranteed, essentially risk-free state pension. They'd also be horrified at the idea of a private sector pension which would be (a) much smaller (b) exposed to the fluctuations and risks of the private market (c) exposed to the government stealing it thought taxation, inflation, rate fixing, capital controls and nationalisation.

It's very hard for public sector employees to understand the point of view of the net tax payers in the private sector. They come to see their jobs as entitlements, they think they work as hard as people in the private sector (they don't, by a long stretch), but generally people lack the empathy to understand what others' lives are like.
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  #136  
Old 10.12.2012, 15:24
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Scratching my head here , who are we going to tax more to pay the teachers more as they already earn above average earnings? This higher salaries will be paid by increasing taxes on ordinary people like Starbucks employees!

Of course you could sack 25% of teachers & give the remaining 75% a 30% pay rise. That of course is the solution in the private sector !
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  #137  
Old 10.12.2012, 15:43
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

To be fair on state school teachers, it's a knackering, fairly thankless job most of the time. It's pretty intense a lot of the time, and it isn't unusual to suffer from 'interaction fatigue' after a day of dealing with children, parents, managers, the police, social services, random satellite professionals and all the other people who lurk in and around schools. During term time, working weeks of 60 hours aren't unusual (not every week, for sure, but enough to bugger up your social life).

However, this has to be balanced, as Symphara says, with good pensions, excellent job security, holidays for which most workers would give up a limb, and decent salaries.

I've been on both sides of the fence, teacher and non-teacher, private and public sector, and can confidently state that most teachers work their arses off. That doesn't mean, however, that I believe that they should be entitled to an automatic pay rise just for turning up for another year.
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  #138  
Old 10.12.2012, 15:50
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

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To be fair on state school teachers,
Oh no!! Not fairness! You're ruining the debate
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  #139  
Old 10.12.2012, 15:53
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Re: Public Sector workers dragged kicking and screaming into the real world...

no idea about the situation of public school teachers in the uk, but having been a public school teacher in nyc and a private school teacher here- i can say that yes, the perks of insurance, job security, etc etc etc (and we had tenure!!!) are nice and certainly more than many in other fields may get.

i don't know many that would choose to teach in a public school, even given the above perks (and after time in a private school, i can say conditions are far worse than in a public school!)

they would give a limb? hmmm, there is not (at least where i am from) an abundance of people who want to be teachers, even with those perks, and others (at least in my nyc) like student loan payback and other extras. and we have a particularly well trained, successful and well paid system- i know plenty of people who looked at all the goodies teachers received, wanted the same, decided to go back to school or enter the system one way or another- and most of the time, ran away screaming-
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  #140  
Old 10.12.2012, 16:20
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To be fair on state school teachers, it's a knackering, fairly thankless job most of the time. It's pretty intense a lot of the time
What you are describing is a job rather than a hobby. It's the reason people get paid , most jobs are repetitive & thankless why should teaching be any different ?
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