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  #201  
Old 15.12.2012, 20:51
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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I wrote "America needs criticism" not "Americans need criticism."
Yes, I know you did. That is the point I was making. You can't usefully criticise a country any more than you can criticise a brick wall. Have a go at the bricklayer, not the wall.
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Old 15.12.2012, 20:58
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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I can't agree with what I think you're saying. Just because there are other ways of doing terrible things to people isn't a good argument for trying to take these lethal weapons out of easy circulation.

To create a bagful of pipe bombs or whatever, to transport them to a school, and to deploy them in such a way as to terrorise and kill a number of people would take far more knowledge, planning and good fortune (from their perspective) than to go to the same place with some guns in a hold-all that you keep in a cupboard at home.

From what I can see, many of these losers are fantasists for whom the gun is an essential icon. Picking victims off with a gun is probably part of the arcade-game fantasy world they live in. They can terrorise people without endangering themselves, which I would think is not so easy with home-made bombs.
Look, there have been school shootings in Finland, one or more that I recall with a semi-automatic pistol, without this whole hubbub over gun control. I think part of it is the sensationalism and fascination the media has with such incidents (apparently there's already another mass shooting somewhere) which tend to appeal to these sorts of folks who want to die but want to take folks with them to go out in a blaze of media attention. It's a whole lot of things so it's not as though simply removing the guns from circulation will keep these sorts of events from occurring. If only it were that easy.

And making a claymore-style pipe bomb is really pretty rudimentary. But, if your mom has 6 guns and you grew up shooting them with her at the target range...well, that's an easy choice.
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Old 15.12.2012, 20:58
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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Yes, I know you did. That is the point I was making. You can't usefully criticise a country any more than you can criticise a brick wall. Have a go at the bricklayer, not the wall.
You can't but I can...
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  #204  
Old 15.12.2012, 21:57
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

the idea is good, that everyone should have the right to protect himself and fight against the government.
maybe they can start a tracing system so that the owner can trace his gun in real time....
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  #205  
Old 15.12.2012, 22:18
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Look, there have been school shootings in Finland, one or more that I recall with a semi-automatic pistol, without this whole hubbub over gun control. I think part of it is the sensationalism and fascination the media has with such incidents (apparently there's already another mass shooting somewhere) which tend to appeal to these sorts of folks who want to die but want to take folks with them to go out in a blaze of media attention. It's a whole lot of things so it's not as though simply removing the guns from circulation will keep these sorts of events from occurring. If only it were that easy.

And making a claymore-style pipe bomb is really pretty rudimentary. But, if your mom has 6 guns and you grew up shooting them with her at the target range...well, that's an easy choice.
It's an easy choice for deranged people. A knife found in the kitchen would be an easy choice, and a lethal weapon too, for those who flip. It is not target shooting or guns that enable, I don't buy into the whole simplistic equation.

Mass hysterics and prejudice, fed by media and sensationalism, political shortcuts will not save lives, simply removing the vehicle of somebody's ill intentions will not get rid of those intentions. It's too easy to find a quick replacement for guns if somebody is determined. To believe in this kind of false sense of security is dangerous. It's a band-aid solution to something inherently way more ingrained, ill and infested.

The biggest tragedy, Bath School Disaster plan was not even executed by guns.
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  #206  
Old 15.12.2012, 22:24
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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Unfortunately or fortunately, American school will become like the airports. Think about the airports before 9/11 and think about them afterwards. That's where American schools are headed.
Many in PA., Texas and California have their own police departments.

NYC has School Safety Agents who are employees of the City Police, they are unarmed but have somewhat limited police powers to carry out their duties (I guess somewhat like Stadtpolizei Zurich Polizeilicher Assistentdienst)
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  #207  
Old 15.12.2012, 22:39
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In other words, the harder you make it for people , the less it will happen.
Just like prohibition. Or ban on prostitution? Drugs?

I understand people get into arguments over this.

Do I believe he wouldn't have reached out for a different solution, maybe even more evil, if he had no access to guns? No. Poisoning the entire school, god knows what else..

Home made explosives are as unsafe in the hands of maniacs, for entire neighborhoods, as are automats, or simple guns. Since it is the evil will, not the technicalities of the evil plan. It's not the tools, but the sick minds.

Banning guns, rigid restrictions and licensing will only be a cosmetic move.

I do believe in some kind of regulation, but I don't think it will address what needs to be addressed.

You can call me illogical, but I grew up in a place where you can still get an affordable tank on a black market, should you wish to have one. I know nobody having their tanks parked in their backyards.

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Have the courage to confront your age-old prejudices and assumptions.
I have the courage to say that it won't ever be the quick, most seemingly logical solution that will make US a safer place.

It, in fact, will make other places more unsafe, since restrictions will push maniacs into murder tourism to places where it will be easy to get a gun. If guns and weapons are to be made illegal, it has to be in the entire world, and at the same moment. Is that going to realistically happen?

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No, it's not just about mental illnesses. And yes, most people with mental illnesses are likely to be victims rather than perp. But there is definitely something going on - young adults who are isolated, filled with rage. Something is triggering sociopathic behavior.
I really agree with this.
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  #208  
Old 15.12.2012, 23:23
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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People in this thread are throwing around some terms which they don't quite understand.

Automatic weapons fire as long as the trigger is held down, until the magazine is empty. These are very hard to obtain in the US. I don't recall any recent mass shootings in which automatic weapons were used, these guns are very rare.

Semi automatic means one bullet is fired per trigger pull, until the gun is empty. Most pistols and many hunting rifles amd shotguns are semi automatic.
Correct indeed, but NON-automatic means that you have to pull the trigger again and again- This is part of the "Obligarorische" here where they expect you to do this without losing target
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  #209  
Old 15.12.2012, 23:27
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

Well, the latest depressing news is that all of the children were shot between 3 and 11 times, 2 at close range, with a rifle. The amount of uncontrollable rage this guy must have had....JFC, I'm glad I'm getting on a plane soon and escaping the media for a few days at least, but I am dreading listening to my in-laws, whom I like and think are really nice people, probably bring up the topic and ask the usual questions....

Maybe in a few days the details will be more sorted and there will be something to try and understand how it happened.
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  #210  
Old 15.12.2012, 23:32
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Well, the latest depressing news is that all of the children were shot between 3 and 11 times, 2 at close range, with a rifle.
So, he dumped it in the car, or what?

Tom
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  #211  
Old 15.12.2012, 23:36
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Well, the latest depressing news is that all of the children were shot between 3 and 11 times, 2 at close range, with a rifle. The amount of uncontrollable rage this guy must have had....JFC, I'm glad I'm getting on a plane soon and escaping the media for a few days at least, but I am dreading listening to my in-laws, whom I like and think are really nice people, probably bring up the topic and ask the usual questions....

Maybe in a few days the details will be more sorted and there will be something to try and understand how it happened.
I can imagine.. How is that for a holiday spirit. I still can't get over it and we are so far from all that. I can't even think of a recipe on how a tragedy like this could have been prevented. The teacher in me says "love your teens" and kids in general, make their life quality, give them hope..in order to what...in order for them to not kill? How can parents or even good schools prevent an effect of society, it does seem to me like the pathology is linked to or triggered by the environment around that person. Jaysus. Me talking against blaming all on guns does not mean I can get a grip on healing a major flaw in our world. It's not only US thing, we all know that.
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  #212  
Old 15.12.2012, 23:48
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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As long as guns exist in the world, people can gain access to them. The laws just vary the degree of access, but the law in this case denied minors the ability to purchase a gun, yet they still got access to them. But as I've always said, the gun did not spontaneously load itself, nor did it spontaneously point at someone, chamber a round, and discharge. Someone pulled the trigger, and, until we address the underlying premise of resolving these types of situations with violence, removing guns just changes the tool, maybe for the better, maybe for worse...
most certainly... for the better.
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  #213  
Old 15.12.2012, 23:51
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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She should have had her own gun so she could have defended herself.

The gun was just the tool. It was the mentality of three asshats that decided to pull the trigger. Like most asshats, they're probably cowards, and if they thought she could shoot back, I doubt this would've happened.
But, the most likely scenario would be that there are 2 or more dead bodies. How is that going to help the situation?
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  #214  
Old 16.12.2012, 00:15
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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Leaving aside the point that if any poster online needed to be intimately familiar with their subject as a precondition to writing, that most forums would have their traffic reduced by 90% and EF would probably wither and die.....

To your points about only Americans knowing what is good for America, I am interested in your view on the following

1. If YOU had ultimate power and didn't need to worry about re-election or Congress, what would you do today (if anything) about gun control laws in the US?

2. If there wasn't a historical argument about 2nd amendment issues and guns had never been legal in the US, what would be the arguments to legalise today?
Firstly, I don't think, nor did I suggest that only Americans know whats good for America.

As to your questions, if I had absolute power, I'd absolutely enact much stricter gun control. What I'd do about the few hundred million guns already out there, I have no idea, sadly.

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Old 16.12.2012, 00:47
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Oh, and BTW, I don't know where the "violent country" perception comes from.
How about all the drones, warring, torture, police brutality, domestic violence & homicides?...It's part of the culture...So while better gun control laws are needed and long overdue, they don't address the bigger issue of senseless violence that wages on

Clearly Americans are numb to it as they are inundated with countless examples for reducing gun violence yet do nothing about it

And I agree with a previous poster, schools will become the new airports and a fully militarized state won't be too far away
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Old 16.12.2012, 01:23
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

How about we get straight to the point.

When it comes to guns, America is a f cked up country.
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Old 16.12.2012, 02:30
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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How about we get straight to the point.

When it comes to guns, America is a f cked up country.
Instead of invading other countries and arming rebels, America has a war right in her own backyard that needs to be fought. Nonetheless, "things never change from the top to the bottom, they change from the bottom up." When the American people get tired of it, I mean really tired of it, then there will be real change. People who hold their seats in congress and the senate for too long need to be thrown out. Long-term judges and the like need the boot as well. I will say, people can talk about the Middle East and their problems. But once they get tired of a leader they kick their asses to the curb, and it's on to the next one. Americans have become docile puppets, waiting for their "leaders" to solve the problems of their society. They are waiting for these people to solve problems who don't really care about them. It's sad indeed...
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  #218  
Old 16.12.2012, 03:37
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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Just like prohibition. Or ban on prostitution? Drugs?

Do I believe he wouldn't have reached out for a different solution, maybe even more evil, if he had no access to guns? No. Poisoning the entire school, god knows what else..

Home made explosives are as unsafe in the hands of maniacs, for entire neighborhoods, as are automats, or simple guns. Since it is the evil will, not the technicalities of the evil plan. It's not the tools, but the sick minds.

Banning guns, rigid restrictions and licensing will only be a cosmetic move.

I do believe in some kind of regulation, but I don't think it will address what needs to be addressed.

You can call me illogical, but I grew up in a place where you can still get an affordable tank on a black market, should you wish to have one. I know nobody having their tanks parked in their backyards.

I have the courage to say that it won't ever be the quick, most seemingly logical solution that will make US a safer place.

It, in fact, will make other places more unsafe, since restrictions will push maniacs into murder tourism to places where it will be easy to get a gun. If guns and weapons are to be made illegal, it has to be in the entire world, and at the same moment. Is that going to realistically happen?
Everything you say begins from the position that the law cannot assist much. You rationalise everything based on that pivotal assumption. That is why I said you should take a moment to confront your preconceptions and prejudices. I'm also wary of this suspiciously familiar term "automats" that you keep using.

The more guns there are, the more gun crime there is. I can't put it any more simply than that. To have a gun-happy nation with a growing number of 'isolated sociopathic young adults filled with rage', and keen for their 15 minutes of infamy, is a disaster. There will be more of these mass shootings, and you know it.

Ordinary decent people like you who may have been a bit complacent, or perhaps proud of the cultural/heritage aspects of gun availability need to change your mindset. It's you who needs to act, not those sociopathic young adults.

Enough. It will take a generation -- 20 or 30 years at least -- to see a big difference in attitude, so the sooner you start, the better.

Some people will still do mad, terrible things when guns start to vanish -- you are right. But for the sake of the future victims and their families, make it harder for them. Why ever would a sane person want to argue for easy gun acquisition?
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  #219  
Old 16.12.2012, 10:36
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings



Guns used in the Connecticut shooting.
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Old 16.12.2012, 10:42
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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Guns used in the Connecticut shooting.
So you can get all three for less than a decent TV.
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