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  #261  
Old 16.12.2012, 22:47
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

Wow! You have some strange mental processes going on there.


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Did you really repost that? People that lobby to make guns regularly available are NOT complicit in the murder of children. This is like saying that people who choose plastic bags over paper bags are complicit in autoasphyxiation accidents...
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  #262  
Old 16.12.2012, 22:47
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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The first mass shooting in the US was less than three decades ago, first school shooting barely one decade ago.
The University Of Texas massacre happened in 1966 and left 13 people dead. Prior to his rampage the killer had killed his wife and mother. Sounds awfully familiar.
This sad list of school shootings in the US starts in the 19th century:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_..._United_States
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  #263  
Old 16.12.2012, 22:49
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I read this today, and it makes sense to me - kristof frames gun control as a public health issue and likens gun regulations to car regulations. I'm sure Libertarians will find fault with this, but there you go.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/op...sdkristof&_r=0



December 15, 2012
Do We Have the Courage to Stop This?
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF
IN the harrowing aftermath of the school shooting in Connecticut, one thought wells in my mind: Why can’t we regulate guns as seriously as we do cars?

The fundamental reason kids are dying in massacres like this one is not that we have lunatics or criminals — all countries have them — but that we suffer from a political failure to regulate guns.

Children ages 5 to 14 in America are 13 times as likely to be murdered with guns as children in other industrialized countries, according to David Hemenway, a public health specialist at Harvard who has written an excellent book on gun violence.

So let’s treat firearms rationally as the center of a public health crisis that claims one life every 20 minutes. The United States realistically isn’t going to ban guns, but we can take steps to reduce the carnage.

American schoolchildren are protected by building codes that govern stairways and windows. School buses must meet safety standards, and the bus drivers have to pass tests. Cafeteria food is regulated for safety. The only things we seem lax about are the things most likely to kill.

The Occupational Safety and Health Administration has five pages of regulations about ladders, while federal authorities shrug at serious curbs on firearms. Ladders kill around 300 Americans a year, and guns 30,000.

We even regulate toy guns, by requiring orange tips — but lawmakers don’t have the gumption to stand up to National Rifle Association extremists and regulate real guns as carefully as we do toys. What do we make of the contrast between heroic teachers who stand up to a gunman and craven, feckless politicians who won’t stand up to the N.R.A.?

As one of my Facebook followers wrote after I posted about the shooting, “It is more difficult to adopt a pet than it is to buy a gun.”

Look, I grew up on an Oregon farm where guns were a part of life; and my dad gave me a .22 rifle for my 12th birthday. I understand: shooting is fun! But so is driving, and we accept that we must wear seat belts, use headlights at night, and fill out forms to buy a car. Why can’t we be equally adult about regulating guns?

And don’t say that it won’t make a difference because crazies will always be able to get a gun. We’re not going to eliminate gun deaths, any more than we have eliminated auto accidents. But if we could reduce gun deaths by one-third, that would be 10,000 lives saved annually.

Likewise, don’t bother with the argument that if more people carried guns, they would deter shooters or interrupt them. Mass shooters typically kill themselves or are promptly caught, so it’s hard to see what deterrence would be added by having more people pack heat. There have been few if any cases in the United States in which an ordinary citizen with a gun stopped a mass shooting.

The tragedy isn’t one school shooting, it’s the unceasing toll across our country. More Americans die in gun homicides and suicides in six months than have died in the last 25 years in every terrorist attack and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq combined.

So what can we do? A starting point would be to limit gun purchases to one a month, to curb gun traffickers. Likewise, we should restrict the sale of high-capacity magazines so that a shooter can’t kill as many people without reloading.

We should impose a universal background check for gun buyers, even with private sales. Let’s make serial numbers more difficult to erase, and back California in its effort to require that new handguns imprint a microstamp on each shell so that it can be traced back to a particular gun.

“We’ve endured too many of these tragedies in the past few years,” President Obama noted in a tearful statement on television. He’s right, but the solution isn’t just to mourn the victims — it’s to change our policies. Let’s see leadership on this issue, not just moving speeches.

Other countries offer a road map. In Australia in 1996, a mass killing of 35 people galvanized the nation’s conservative prime minister to ban certain rapid-fire long guns. The “national firearms agreement,” as it was known, led to the buyback of 650,000 guns and to tighter rules for licensing and safe storage of those remaining in public hands.

The law did not end gun ownership in Australia. It reduced the number of firearms in private hands by one-fifth, and they were the kinds most likely to be used in mass shootings.

In the 18 years before the law, Australia suffered 13 mass shootings — but not one in the 14 years after the law took full effect. The murder rate with firearms has dropped by more than 40 percent, according to data compiled by the Harvard Injury Control Research Center, and the suicide rate with firearms has dropped by more than half.

Or we can look north to Canada. It now requires a 28-day waiting period to buy a handgun, and it imposes a clever safeguard: gun buyers should have the support of two people vouching for them.

For that matter, we can look for inspiration at our own history on auto safety. As with guns, some auto deaths are caused by people who break laws or behave irresponsibly. But we don’t shrug and say, “Cars don’t kill people, drunks do.”

Instead, we have required seat belts, air bags, child seats and crash safety standards. We have introduced limited licenses for young drivers and tried to curb the use of mobile phones while driving. All this has reduced America’s traffic fatality rate per mile driven by nearly 90 percent since the 1950s.

Some of you are alive today because of those auto safety regulations. And if we don’t treat guns in the same serious way, some of you and some of your children will die because of our failure.
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  #264  
Old 16.12.2012, 22:53
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

I am just waiting for the NRA to ask for mandatory gun training classes for elementary school students. If they had been armed and properly trained how to use their Glocks they could have certainly stopped the killer.
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  #265  
Old 16.12.2012, 23:00
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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I Why can't we regulate guns as seriously as we do cars?
Back in late 1993 / early 1994, I wrote a paper (for a German government body) on the Brady Bill and came up with a very similar analogy, comparing the requirements for getting a driver's license vs. being allowed to buy and carry a gun under the Brady Bill.
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  #266  
Old 17.12.2012, 01:43
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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How about we get straight to the point.

When it comes to guns, America is a f cked up country.
Sure, the whole shooting trouble started in the USA and happens a bit more often (by capita) then elsewhere. But first of all NOT so much more if regarded per capita, and second the quesstion to be considered is whether it really is the guns or whether the problem is rather a social one. Interesting was that the USA public reacted to the incident in Wisconsin by purchasing even more guns instead of less guns. Looks as if many people do not realize that to own a rifle does not help you in case of a surprise attack as your gun
- will be in the wrong place
- not ready in your hands
- not with ammunition in it
- not loaded
and that the owner most likely is not trained and well exercised

It should be made clear that simple ownership of a weapon does NOT improve your safety in any way

It is sometimes compared to how Swiss soldiers "own" a military rifle. Beside the point that you do NOT "own" the beast at all, you have to go to the shooting stand each year to prove that you still are able to use it. No problem for a good shooter, but I for 20 years each time feared a failure which would have meant a full day in a shooting training camp, The day in late 1995 when could hand back that rifle to "the owners" was one of the best days in my life !

People may point to the fact that US troops WERE in actual wars in Iraq, Afthanistan and elsewhere but simply are not aware that even in wars, less the 15% of the soldiers are really directly involved in combat. I mean those soldiers who get killed when on patrol duty are not idiots ! Just surprised by a sudden turn of things into an emergency.

Last edited by Wollishofener; 17.12.2012 at 04:17.
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  #267  
Old 17.12.2012, 09:12
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/nan...-1226538321098
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Old 17.12.2012, 09:42
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

The problem is deep, and simple.

How do Americans think when they have been wronged?

They get angry. That's how popular media in the US provides a solution to this. And it starts with the kids shows. In these programs the 'good' cartoon character seeks revenge. Revenge. But, the 'good person' who fights the lions had best be careful that he or she does not end up as a lion as well, which is so often the case.

When The Indians got rid of the British they did the right way, passively. They locked horns with the British with the power of the will. They took a bucket load of punishment but in doing so they showed the Indian population how brutal and unethical the occupiers were. But the Indians with Ghandi also took control of the masses. And when that happens then it's game over for the opposition.

If this attitude is adopted then others will follow this example when they feel that they have been wronged. So instead of getting angry when sad, people will look for a solution that does not involve violence.

Fear, sadness and anger are the mind killers. Learn to deal with those and in the end happyness will mostly prevail.

US gun laws were drawn up with the intention to provide guns to those who needed them to hunt and to a lesser extent to provide protection or an incentive to others not to attack them.

So the solution is to teach the children that revenge is not the answer rather than the current system of child education in the popular media which promotes a circle of violence.
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  #269  
Old 17.12.2012, 09:53
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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How do human beings think when they have been wronged?

They get angry.
FTFY. I think to paint all Americans with such a broad brush is truly unfair. It's human nature to react with some anger when we've been wronged. It's up to us all to find a different way to deal with that anger...
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  #270  
Old 17.12.2012, 10:41
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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Sure, the whole shooting trouble started in the USA and happens a bit more often (by capita) then elsewhere. But first of all NOT so much more if regarded per capita, and second the quesstion to be considered is whether it really is the guns or whether the problem is rather a social one. Interesting was that the USA public reacted to the incident in Wisconsin by purchasing even more guns instead of less guns. Looks as if many people do not realize that to own a rifle does not help you in case of a surprise attack as your gun
- will be in the wrong place
- not ready in your hands
- not with ammunition in it
- not loaded
and that the owner most likely is not trained and well exercised

It should be made clear that simple ownership of a weapon does NOT improve your safety in any way

It is sometimes compared to how Swiss soldiers "own" a military rifle. Beside the point that you do NOT "own" the beast at all, you have to go to the shooting stand each year to prove that you still are able to use it. No problem for a good shooter, but I for 20 years each time feared a failure which would have meant a full day in a shooting training camp, The day in late 1995 when could hand back that rifle to "the owners" was one of the best days in my life !

People may point to the fact that US troops WERE in actual wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere but simply are not aware that even in wars, less the 15% of the soldiers are really directly involved in combat. I mean those soldiers who get killed when on patrol duty are not idiots ! Just surprised by a sudden turn of things into an emergency.
Its not just about the guns you're right but if you take away the guns then the crazy people can not get hold of them.

There are crazy people all over the world but if you look at countries that have stricter gun control they do not have the same issues, of course it happens but not as often as it does in countries that are flooded with guns.

The question should be, why is that the case? Well its a pretty simple answer, guns are more difficult to get hold of in these countries and only once America wakes up and realises this will it be able to move forward.

I got severely groaned at in another thread when I mentioned 'fake grief'. What I meant by that is if you are really that bothered about it then do something. I also said it was 'easy' to do something about it and again got severely groaned.
Obama, instead of going to visit the town tell the nation we will be sitting in an office for the next two days to come up with a plan to put a stop this! I am sure the parents of the kids killed and other parents would appreciate this more than a a quick stop off to show you 'care'.
Instead of giving your kid that extra little cuddle before bed, call up your neighbour, friend, colleague whoever it is that has a gun and ask them if they really need it and how would they feel if it gets into the wrong hands? And if they say it won't happen, tell them that's exactly what has just happened.

and in other news

Anyone who does not think owning 47 guns is bonkers is just as boners themselves!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...n_2311717.html

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Although police found 47 guns and ammunition hidden throughout Meyer's two-story home after they arrested him, Smith said most of those weapons were antique collector guns and he believes Meyer was not serious about his school threat.
Hidden, if they were collectors items why were they hidden? Seriously this is a prime example of just how f cked up America is when it comes to guns.
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  #271  
Old 17.12.2012, 10:45
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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The problem is deep, and simple.

How do Americans think when they have been wronged?

They get angry. That's how popular media in the US provides a solution to this. And it starts with the kids shows. In these programs the 'good' cartoon character seeks revenge. Revenge. But, the 'good person' who fights the lions had best be careful that he or she does not end up as a lion as well, which is so often the case.

When The Indians got rid of the British they did the right way, passively. They locked horns with the British with the power of the will. They took a bucket load of punishment but in doing so they showed the Indian population how brutal and unethical the occupiers were. But the Indians with Ghandi also took control of the masses. And when that happens then it's game over for the opposition.

If this attitude is adopted then others will follow this example when they feel that they have been wronged. So instead of getting angry when sad, people will look for a solution that does not involve violence.

Fear, sadness and anger are the mind killers. Learn to deal with those and in the end happyness will mostly prevail.

US gun laws were drawn up with the intention to provide guns to those who needed them to hunt and to a lesser extent to provide protection or an incentive to others not to attack them.

So the solution is to teach the children that revenge is not the answer rather than the current system of child education in the popular media which promotes a circle of violence.
And this only happens in America?

Revenge happens all over the world, the difference is and the bit the gun lovers choose not to accept is that if you take away the guns then the revenge will not result in a shooting spree.

Its like a diet take away the chocolate and you can't eat it.
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  #272  
Old 17.12.2012, 10:46
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

More info:

http://www.newstimes.com/news/us/art...on-4122058.php

Tom
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  #273  
Old 17.12.2012, 10:48
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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So the solution is to teach the children that revenge is not the answer rather than the current system of child education in the popular media which promotes a circle of violence.

So you probably mean that 90% of American films should be banned as well as most of them seem to have a gun and revenge element.
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  #274  
Old 17.12.2012, 10:57
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

How can you groan me for saying America is f cked up when it comes to guns and then post this?
This is a prime example of why it is messed up, why would anyone in their right mind own al this ammunition in their home?
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  #275  
Old 17.12.2012, 11:01
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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How can you groan me for saying America is f cked up when it comes to guns and then post this?
Because it is NOT 'America' that is f.cked up, but rather certain INDIVIDUALS.

Tom
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Old 17.12.2012, 11:16
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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Because it is NOT 'America' that is f.cked up, but rather certain INDIVIDUALS.

Tom
You really are not accepting this are you?

The individuals are messed up but if they had no access to guns then they could not go on a shooting spree?

Would you not agree with that? Why can you not see it really is that simple?
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Old 17.12.2012, 11:23
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

My overweight elderly lady neighbour back in the US used to tote a pistol in her purse. She had a permit and she was bat shit crazy. Her kids had access to these guns too. Luckily they weren't as crazy as she was.

The pressure is on Obama for a change in gun ownership. I'll be very interested in seeing how they will attempt to revamp gun ownership laws without changing the 2nd Amendment. Or will the 2nd Amendment be changed too?

Keeping my fingers crossed that these innocent children didn't die in vain.
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Old 17.12.2012, 11:35
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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You really are not accepting this are you?

The individuals are messed up but if they had no access to guns then they could not go on a shooting spree?

Would you not agree with that? Why can you not see it really is that simple?
I think this is the crux of the matter and I too cannot understand why people do not understand this.

Comparing guns to plastic bags and whatever else people have used as an argument in this thread just shows that the pro-gun lobby really has lost the plot, ought to back down gracefully or just be quiet as they are making themselves look very, very stupid in light of what has happened.
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Old 17.12.2012, 11:39
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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the pro-gun lobby really has lost the plot
Alas, I am not pro-gun at all, but I am not anti-gun either.

Don't own any, never have, though I have considered taking up hunting.

Tom
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Old 17.12.2012, 11:42
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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Alas, I am not pro-gun at all, but I am not anti-gun either.

Don't own any, never have, though I have considered taking up hunting.

Tom
Me neither, I have shot guns in ranges before and loved it, it was a great buzz.

Why will you not answer my question?

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The individuals are messed up but if they had no access to guns then they could not go on a shooting spree?

Would you not agree with that? Why can you not see it really is that simple?
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