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  #341  
Old 17.12.2012, 16:52
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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Perhaps they could use Beagles instead of guns?
I remember that in one of the OMEN films. The 'good guys' who were trying to kill Damien were attacked by a pack of Beagles. Revenge can be dangerous...
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  #342  
Old 17.12.2012, 16:53
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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The system won't let me give one word answers. But I'm willing to say yes. Permit me to ask you a question in return. Do you think that the gunman could have been stopped if a teacher had quick access to a firearm?
yes, because of course we proud Americans want nothing more than to send our children to schools where the teachers are armed. for Christ's sake, if my childrens' teacher needs to be armed for me to feel safe about my kids' school environment (that statement in and of itself being an utter offense to logic), then I'm living in the wrong country.
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  #343  
Old 17.12.2012, 16:53
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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Hunting is always wheeled out when you try and impose firearm controls. If you could try and have these "hunters" do something else, you'd make massive inroads into changing the way American society thinks (or not as the case may be).
I believe your point was so eloquently made by a Mathematician back in the early 60s

I always will remember,
'Twas a year ago November,
I went out to hunt some deer
On a mornin' bright and clear.
I went and shot the maximum the game laws would allow,
Two game wardens, seven hunters, and a cow.

I was in no mood to trifle,
I took down my trusty rifle
And went out to stalk my prey.
What a haul I made that day.
I tied them to my fender, and I drove them home somehow,
Two game wardens, seven hunters, and a cow.

The law was very firm, it
Took away my permit,
The worst punishment I ever endured.
It turned out there was a reason,
Cows were out of season,
And one of the hunters wasn't insured.

People ask me how I do it,
And I say, "There's nothin' to it,
You just stand there lookin' cute,
And when something moves, you shoot!"
And there's ten stuffed heads in my trophy room right now,
Two game wardens, seven hunters, and a pure-bred Guernsey cow.
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  #344  
Old 17.12.2012, 16:54
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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It was a SEMI-automatic rifle!

Tom
You're right but seriously is that the best you can do?

You have still not answered my question.

One question I would like you to answer with either a yes or no answer.

In this particular incident, if this boy never had such easy access to guns would he have been able shoot these kids?
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  #345  
Old 17.12.2012, 16:56
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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I belive the pro-gun league would propose NOT keeping them in a secure cabinet but that teachers have weapons on themselves AT ALL TIMES!
What would the parents want?
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  #346  
Old 17.12.2012, 16:56
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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At the risk of derailing the discussion on gun control: The US already holds the world record for prison inmates. And there are multiple studies that the severeness of the punishment is racially biased.
That might be true since black boys and Hispanic men in America are consistently frisked. However, in shooting incidents like this, 99% of the time the shooter is a young white male. Nonetheless, young white males are very rarely checked. In fact, even their crimes are analyzed differently. Blacks who commit shootings crimes are low-life, stupid, poverty stricken, animals who need to be locked up. When a white male shoots there must be some mental problem Autism, Bi-polar, depression, schizophrenia, then there is a call for more "mental institutions" not jails...that's how the American system seems to work.
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  #347  
Old 17.12.2012, 16:56
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Oh jeeesuz. Do not blame this on Adhd medication. Utter bullshit.
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  #348  
Old 17.12.2012, 16:58
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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It's apparently more so they have the ability to rise up against their own government (which was democratically elected but lets not complicate this issue for them).
this is mostly a myth, the Second Amendment was principally intended to avoid the need for the States to fund a standing army.
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  #349  
Old 17.12.2012, 16:58
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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Oh jeeesuz. Do not blame this on Adhd medication. Utter bullshit.
Everything and anything will be blamed apart from the fact guns are readily available in the US to pretty much anyone.
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  #350  
Old 17.12.2012, 17:02
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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The best soldier in the Navy Seals/SAS could not have got a gun out a secure cabinet quick enough to stop this boy killing someone.
Oh yes they could.
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  #351  
Old 17.12.2012, 17:03
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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What would the parents want?
As a fresh parent, I believe what parents want is to rather get rid of the guns than to bring them into schools.

I remember the massacre in the movie: at the time people also said things like "if more people in the theater had a gun...". I mean seriously? I don't want to imagine what the outcome would have been if more people stood up in the dark theater and started shooting. After a few secs how would anyone know who is the original shooter? I am afraid NOBODY would have left that place alive.
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  #352  
Old 17.12.2012, 17:04
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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You're right but seriously is that the best you can do?

You have still not answered my question.

One question I would like you to answer with either a yes or no answer.

In this particular incident, if this boy never had such easy access to guns would he have been able shoot these kids?
NO as long you stay in the ball park when talking about not having easy access.
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  #353  
Old 17.12.2012, 17:04
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Oh yes they could.
Now really: Stop trolling please!

Thank you
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  #354  
Old 17.12.2012, 17:05
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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I don't think it's easy to own an automatic weapon legally or illegally anywhere except in the police, millitary or some druggy gang. Some places do allow it and I wish I lived in one.
Semi-automatic is different.
No. It's not.

I mean, to the gun nuts yes, but to ordinary people the difference between being able to shoot 11 bullets in a couple of seconds and twenty in a single burst is purely academic.

Especially if you're on the receiving end :-/
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  #355  
Old 17.12.2012, 17:06
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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Oh jeeesuz. Do not blame this on Adhd medication. Utter bullshit.
regardless of what "disorder" was being treated, it is a simple fact that nearly all of the very public shootings in the US share 2 common denominators - guns, and pharmaceuticals.
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  #356  
Old 17.12.2012, 17:06
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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What would the parents want?

If I was a parent in the US?

A police officer at the front door. A fence around the perimeter of the school and a locked front door.
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  #357  
Old 17.12.2012, 17:09
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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If I was a parent in the US?

A police officer at the front door. A fence around the perimeter of the school and a locked front door.
Like this you mean?

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  #358  
Old 17.12.2012, 17:12
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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these are all fantastic objectives, and we should work over the next 100 years to address these points. in the meantime, however, we should do whatever we can to limit access to the tools that are used in committing these crimes. the primary purpose of a system of laws, after all, is not to proscribe rules for moral people of sound judgment, but rather to set the boundaries of behavior for those people whose morality or judgment is less than sound, i.e. those people who for whatever reason lack the ability to independently distinguish "good" behavior from "bad".
Why wait 100 years? We didn't get to this point in 100 years; I would opine that we got here in my own parents' lifetimes (less than 60 years). We have to start solving the problem today. Slowly working towards something in the instant-gratification, short-sighted culture that is coming to define America won't work. The US has progressively added more gun-control laws, and, as I said in my previous response, Americans have allowed these laws to substitute for good upbringing, common social values, and identifying these individuals earlier. I don't want our shortsightedness to allow us to drink the gun-control DayQuil and ignore the raging pneumonia in American culture.
These shootings prove that laws alone aren't enough; we can write new laws, but for the criminal, who ignore the laws, and the irrational, who cannot or do not understand the laws, what good is this really? We give up more of our society, lose more freedoms, and create more distrust amongst one another so we can pat ourselves on the back at the lull in the violence. But what happens when one of these people hops on the Internet, becomes a home chemist, and walks into a school with a backpack full of IEDs? How hollow will the gun-control victory seem then? After the movie-theater shooting in Colorado, and seeing how that man's apartment was rigged, I see this as a very real possibility in the near future, unless Americans do more than just write words on paper. If you take away one tool, another will simply fill the gap, unless you close the gap.
Laws are just one part of closing this gap, but they are only as effective as the society that supports them, and when push comes to shove, Americans don't support these laws as well as they probably should. When young adults are accused of crimes, their parents rage against the system and defend their child. While nobody is denying parental instinct, nor the fact that some are wrongly accused, this is fast becoming the prevalent norm and not the exception that it should be. This behavior could be due to many factors, but it speaks to an inherent distrust and lack of support of the legal mechanism; if there is no trust in this mechanism, then, again what is adding to this mechanism going to accomplish?
So, on the one hand, we have Americans too quickly supporting laws as they apply to others, using them as substitutes for good social structures, but not being equally supportive when these laws are applied to themselves or their loved ones.

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Personally I don't find this position acceptable. Hopefully it is now clear for everyone that something must be done to reduce the frequency of these mass shootings. Criticising other peoples suggestions without offering some alternatives isn't constructive.
I can't apologize for not having the answers; I will gladly admit it is much easier to point out problems than to solve them. However, I would rather attempt to identify the illness than simply point to symptoms and slap a band-aid over the greater problem. Further, I wasn't criticizing another's suggestions, as there were no suggestions, just the verbatim reposting of a news article that stated anyone that supported access to firearms was complicit in the killing of these children, a premise that is simply false, foolish, and offensive.

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One question I would like you to answer with either a yes or no answer.

In this particular incident, if this boy never had such easy access to guns would he have been able shoot these kids?
This isn't a "Yes" or "No" question. Legally, the shooter had no right to own handguns, as he was under 21. Legally, the parent did have access, and followed the law in acquiring the guns, so the guns were entirely legal. According to CNN, he killed his mother before acquiring the guns (See: Before the Events at the School), so even if they were locked in a gun locker, with a trigger lock, Lanza had all the time to defeat these measures. Also, most of the information I have read doesn't speak to whether these guns were readily available in the home or not; these critical questions remain unanswered by what I've read. So I don't know how "easy" his access actually was; the guns could've been safely stored and its very possible that there were no ammunition in the house, rendering the guns inert as anything other than bludgeons, yet he overcame all of this, quite easily from what I have read, as a matter of fact.
We could hypothesize about what if they were locked up off-site, but the fact is they were stored in the home, as most guns in the US are. And the other fact is that the vast preponderance of guns are not used to injure or kill, nor are the majority of guns used in the commission of violent crime.
So, if we hypothesize a perfect-world scenario that never existed, we might be able to claim that he wouldn't have had access to these guns, and that he wouldn't have tried something else to achieve these tragic ends...


Before anyone assails me as not supporting reasonable gun-control measures; I do support reasonable measures, such as background checks (violent offenders and felons, regardless of whether their offense were violent or otherwise, should not be legally allowed to own any gun), registered transactions (no private off-the-books transactions) and requirements for gun-safety training. I don't think that people need fully automatic weapons for any purpose, but "semi-automatic" covers such a wide range of weapons, that I find it a poor defining criterion for restricting guns; some semi-automatic weapons don't belong in private hands, but others don't fall into this category, so I resist arguments that use this criterion for gun control.
Changing the magazine size, IMO, is also ineffective as it doesn't reduce the actual amount of cartridges someone can carry; one can simply carry more magazines. Against unarmed victims, it doesn't matter as much that you have to reload more often. Also, gun clips are not technologically sophisticated, and large-capacity clips can be easily machined, assuming they weren't already readily available on the secondary market. Buybacks and confiscation both take time and are never 100% effective, so high-capacity clips are out there and more can be made.

So, to sum up, this is a bigger problem than just gun control alone can address and addressing the symptom (violence) doesn't cure the disease (culture).
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  #359  
Old 17.12.2012, 17:12
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Oh yes they could.
You really have no clue what you are talking about do you.
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  #360  
Old 17.12.2012, 17:12
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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regardless of what "disorder" was being treated, it is a simple fact that nearly all of the very public shootings in the US share 2 common denominators - guns, and pharmaceuticals.
Technically they also share ammunition.

A gun without a bullet is only ever likely to produce a blunt object trauma - which are often more recoverable than multiple gun shot wounds.
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