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  #361  
Old 17.12.2012, 18:14
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Right you are!! Just google China Knife attack which happened the same day as this shooting. Reports from China say the injuries were gruesome including cut off fingers and ears. It's not the gun, Not the knife but the freak holding it.
How many kids died in the Chinese incident?

Of course it is still horrific but none of the kids as far as I am aware actually died.
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  #362  
Old 17.12.2012, 18:16
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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It is clear that it COULD. It is sad that there are still idiots such as Jobsrobertsharpii (who groans and red reps w/o replying with sound arguments) who still don't get it that by giving up the "freedom" of anyone owning a gun COULD prevent such tragedies.
How can Jobsrobertsharpii reply soundly to points which are either ill prepared or loaded with emotional rhetoric, and why should he? Only a few people have shown the slightest bit of intelligence in response to this terrible event. Okay I'll point it out.

Crazed youth shoots youngsters in school

Shouldn't we be looking at the subject of this statement rather than the verb, i.e. crazed youth, or shall we run straight at the verb like a bull at a gate. Obahma says it won't be easy, he's right because nobody wants to tackle the obvious or even start looking at how middle class american parents (and europe to some extent) have failed to take time to nurture their youth. Discuss.
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  #363  
Old 17.12.2012, 18:17
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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This isn't a "Yes" or "No" question. Legally, the shooter had no right to own handguns, as he was under 21. Legally, the parent did have access, and followed the law in acquiring the guns, so the guns were entirely legal. According to CNN, he killed his mother before acquiring the guns (See: Before the Events at the School), so even if they were locked in a gun locker, with a trigger lock, Lanza had all the time to defeat these measures. Also, most of the information I have read doesn't speak to whether these guns were readily available in the home or not; these critical questions remain unanswered by what I've read. So I don't know how "easy" his access actually was; the guns could've been safely stored and its very possible that there were no ammunition in the house, rendering the guns inert as anything other than bludgeons, yet he overcame all of this, quite easily from what I have read, as a matter of fact.
We could hypothesize about what if they were locked up off-site, but the fact is they were stored in the home, as most guns in the US are. And the other fact is that the vast preponderance of guns are not used to injure or kill, nor are the majority of guns used in the commission of violent crime.
So, if we hypothesize a perfect-world scenario that never existed, we might be able to claim that he wouldn't have had access to these guns, and that he wouldn't have tried something else to achieve these tragic ends...


Before anyone assails me as not supporting reasonable gun-control measures; I do support reasonable measures, such as background checks (violent offenders and felons, regardless of whether their offense were violent or otherwise, should not be legally allowed to own any gun), registered transactions (no private off-the-books transactions) and requirements for gun-safety training. I don't think that people need fully automatic weapons for any purpose, but "semi-automatic" covers such a wide range of weapons, that I find it a poor defining criterion for restricting guns; some semi-automatic weapons don't belong in private hands, but others don't fall into this category, so I resist arguments that use this criterion for gun control.
Changing the magazine size, IMO, is also ineffective as it doesn't reduce the actual amount of cartridges someone can carry; one can simply carry more magazines. Against unarmed victims, it doesn't matter as much that you have to reload more often. Also, gun clips are not technologically sophisticated, and large-capacity clips can be easily machined, assuming they weren't already readily available on the secondary market. Buybacks and confiscation both take time and are never 100% effective, so high-capacity clips are out there and more can be made.

So, to sum up, this is a bigger problem than just gun control alone can address and addressing the symptom (violence) doesn't cure the disease (culture).
So lets change it and say, if the mother did not have these guns would these children have died?
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  #364  
Old 17.12.2012, 18:20
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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How can Jobsrobertsharpii reply soundly to points which are either ill prepared or loaded with emotional rhetoric, and why should he? Only a few people have shown the slightest bit of intelligence in response to this terrible event. Okay I'll point it out.

Crazed youth shoots youngsters in school

Shouldn't we be looking at the subject of this statement rather than the verb, i.e. crazed youth, or shall we run straight at the verb like a bull at a gate. Obahma says it won't be easy, he's right because nobody wants to tackle the obvious or even start looking at how middle class american parents (and europe to some extent) have failed to take time to nurture their youth. Discuss.
The UK has crazy people.
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  #365  
Old 17.12.2012, 18:22
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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You really have no clue what you are talking about do you.
Oh yes I do, you on the other hand clearly do not. I can open my safe in about 30 seconds I have a thing called a key.
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  #366  
Old 17.12.2012, 18:23
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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The UK has crazy people.
So does Switzerland - and Norway. (Although the latter is the best example).

Crazy people will do crazy things - it kind of defines who they are. However if you enable crazy people to do crazy things with lethal things then chances are they will.
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  #367  
Old 17.12.2012, 18:23
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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The UK has crazy people.
Of course it does, same applies.
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  #368  
Old 17.12.2012, 18:26
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Everything and anything will be blamed apart from the fact guns are readily available in the US to pretty much anyone.
And in the end, that's the cause. You asked earlier if the shooter would have caused as much damage were he unable to have access to guns. I suppose there is a possibility that he could have blown everyone to pieces, but i think without a gun, no, not as much damage.
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  #369  
Old 17.12.2012, 18:29
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Oh yes I do, you on the other hand clearly do not. I can open my safe in about 30 seconds I have a thing called a key.
So out of the blue while you are at the other end of the school in 30 secs you can, get to your cabinet, open a padlock, take off a trigger guard, load ammunition and prepare yourself to go on the attack?


OK then Rambo.

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Of course it does, same applies.
How many mass shootings has there been in the UK?

To save you looking, there have been 3 since 1987.

Two of them were by members of a gun club, another it was a shotgun that was used.

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So does Switzerland - and Norway. (Although the latter is the best example).

Crazy people will do crazy things - it kind of defines who they are. However if you enable crazy people to do crazy things with lethal things then chances are they will.
My point was that in the UK crazy people don't go around shooting people, however if they had easy access to guns like the ones I mentioned they may very well shoot people.
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  #370  
Old 17.12.2012, 18:29
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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I think the NRA could and would object, the problem here is people in the USA have a right to self defense especially in there own home. Now I keep all my guns locked in a gun cabinet, I live in the USA in Illinois and we DO HAVE a mandatory storage law here. It does not work, we still have murders, accidents, ect. Just like before. I kept my guns locked up before this law was passed so it really does not effect me at all, BUT if I lived in East St. Louis, Chicago, ect, there is no way I would have all my guns locked up. The problem is locking guns in safes and with trigger locks makes them useless when a killer breaking into your home is coming your way. After all he is not going to wait until you get your gun unlocked to use it on him. Who wants to die in their own home while taking a trigger lock off. The real problem in this country is stupid politicians who would try to put out a house fire by throwing gasoline on it, AND Mental Illness. The USA is a total failure at caring/and or treating mental illness. They put these troubled kids on ADHD medicine as soon as they have the most basic of problems. This medicine is really messing up their minds and not helping at all. See info on ADHD at this link BELOW, ADHD is a horrific problem in this country. These shooters all have things in common, First they happen in a gun free zone, they almost all dress in black commando type clothing, they all had early warning signs of serious problems that were ignored or not fixed, most had been on ADHD medicine and are mentally ill, they all ignored the laws of this country on murder, gun possession, ect. You can't take citizens rights away because of mentally ill madmen. What we need is to put guns IN school, train a small portion of the staff to use it and protect these kids. How many kids could have been saved if the Principal had put one right between this killers eyes, 10 minutes before the police got there? This might surprise many here but after all there ALREADY was guns in the school. My kids school has a full time city police officer at the school at all times and I live in a very rural area and the school is out in the country in the middle of thousands of acres of farm land and cattle pastures. There have been 0 school shootings at our school, wonder why!
I think if I had kids in a school where it was necessary to have armed staff, I'd want to go and live somewhere else.
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  #371  
Old 17.12.2012, 18:29
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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It is clear that it COULD. It is sad that there are still idiots such as Jobsrobertsharpii (who groans and red reps w/o replying with sound arguments) who still don't get it that by giving up the "freedom" of anyone owning a gun COULD prevent such tragedies.
I will attack your arguments, but I don't personally attack you. I would kindly ask if you would do the same. Calling someone an idiot is simply immature, rude, and demonstrative that you don't have anything rational to contribute to the argument...
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  #372  
Old 17.12.2012, 18:36
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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How can Jobsrobertsharpii reply soundly to points which are either ill prepared or loaded with emotional rhetoric, and why should he? Only a few people have shown the slightest bit of intelligence in response to this terrible event. Okay I'll point it out.

Crazed youth shoots youngsters in school

Shouldn't we be looking at the subject of this statement rather than the verb, i.e. crazed youth, or shall we run straight at the verb like a bull at a gate. Obahma says it won't be easy, he's right because nobody wants to tackle the obvious or even start looking at how middle class american parents (and europe to some extent) have failed to take time to nurture their youth. Discuss.
Once a gun comes into the equation, people become emotionally charged, so its hard to take an objective look at these things. That's why these killings are still happening; Americans keep reacting emotively, passing ineffective laws, and then going back to American Idol or Survivor, completely ignoring the bigger problem.

Simply because I am pro-gun-ownership, I am called names and groaned for stating that gun control has proven to be a poor answer in the US and that there is a much bigger problem that cannot be covered over by a feel-good gun control law.
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  #373  
Old 17.12.2012, 18:38
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

i'm really really really tired of this guns don't kill people argument. actually, i;m sick of all of it. guns are more than easily available- i have been to swap meets in the south where guns were bought and sold for nothing among nachos and boxes full of bullets. no id checks, no nothing. having guns in the house leaves people much more likely to be involved in a violent situation and those with guns in their houses are not more likely protect themselves but be victims of gun violence. this kid would not have gone to the school with a knife- he is a coward who needed to overpower children- and if you look at him, without a gun he would never have had the confidence to even try this.

i am disgusted that guns are even defended during times like this and some of the comments that i read here and other places make me really wonder about what is wrong with people given the fact that a 20 year old got a hold of the gun not to mention so many stories we've all heard of people even younger getting ahold of guns and shooting people. there are so many factors that are in play with this whole tragedy but in the end, he used guns to carry this out- mental illness, medication, family issues, whatever. guns are readily available and this is what is being used to kill.
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  #374  
Old 17.12.2012, 18:40
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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My point was that in the UK crazy people don't go around shooting people, however if they had easy access to guns like the ones I mentioned they may very well shoot people.
So was mine!!!

Crazies will be crazy and do crazy.

Why have a situation that allows that crazy to be with something so inherently lethal? Something which was designed from day one to kill - no matter what other uses have been found for the design.

Anyway, anyone going to provide an answer to the number of times the USA has required its civilians to take up arms and form a militia against an invading force?
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Old 17.12.2012, 18:41
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Simply because I am pro-gun-ownership, I am called names and groaned for stating that gun control has proven to be a poor answer in the US and that there is a much bigger problem that cannot be covered over by a feel-good gun control law.
Can you provide reasoned arguments of why "an average Joe" should own a gun?
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  #376  
Old 17.12.2012, 18:44
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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So lets change it and say, if the mother did not have these guns would these children have died?
Then he kills his neighbor and steals the guns from that person. Or he builds IEDs in his garage and goes on a killing spree. Both are as far-fetched as what really happened. We can go around and around about this, but the only way to say with certainty that these children would not have been killed by this person would be to eliminate the existence of ANY possible means of killing them, and this is impossible, so your question really only exists as a rhetorical exercise.
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  #377  
Old 17.12.2012, 18:45
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Now how the heck do you figure on doing that when 49 States have a concealed handgun law. Only Illinois (my state) is holding out, but not for long because a federal court of appeals just ruled Illinois ban on concealed carry of handguns is Unconstitutional (and it is!). The court has ORDERED the Illinois legislators to write a reasonable concealed carry law OR else. They have 180 days from like 1 week ago the day of the courts rulings, OR all States Attorneys CANNOT prosecute anyone found to be carrying a handgun. So they have NO choice now, let people carry legally with no restrictions or pass a reasonable law to allow it and at least have some requirements. This is a stake driven into the hearts of the Chicago politicians and I LOVE it! This whole state is corrupt and we are tired of it. The Chicago mobsters control the whole state, and 4 of Illinois former governors are in prisoner have been in prison, Rod Blagojevich, George Ryan, Dan Walker, and Otto Kerner. Just a few days ago Jessy Jackson Jr.'s replacement in office from Illinois was busted in Chicago trying to board a plane with a handgun and bullets. Also that Freak in the White House is from Chicago as well. This state is a disgrace to this country, the state is bankrupt, does not pay its bills, but does raise the salary of the politicians often.
Who would you rather was in the White House?

The Lone Ranger?
Buffalo Bill?
Mickey Mouse?

After reading your pro-gun posts: Seriously, are there more of people like you in the U.S, or are you a one-off?
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  #378  
Old 17.12.2012, 18:52
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Now how the heck do you figure on doing that when 49 States have a concealed handgun law.
I think the idea is that they _change_the_law_.
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Old 17.12.2012, 18:52
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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After reading your pro-gun posts: Seriously, are there more of people like you in the U.S, or are you a one-off?
There are many, many millions of people just like him sadly.
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  #380  
Old 17.12.2012, 18:53
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Then he kills his neighbor and steals the guns from that person. Or he builds IEDs in his garage and goes on a killing spree. Both are as far-fetched as what really happened.
You're not going to mention alien abduction too, are you?

Please lay off the action movies, will you?
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