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  #381  
Old 17.12.2012, 18:55
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

You don't get groaned 'just because you are pro-gun ownership' - but because the pro-gun lobby refuses to take any responsibility, refuses to even consider ways to try and prevent such killings - refuses to consider any changes and any limitation of their so-called 'freedom'. My parents always taught me that my 'freedom' stops when it begins to hurt people - and 20 toddlers is a lot of hurt

Nobody is naive enough to think there is an easy solution, for all sorts of reasons - but the refusal to even consider changes is just totally irresponsible. Why is the US so totally out of sink with the rest of the world - and refusing to admit it.

If I lived int he US and had children - I'd get out of there as quickly as I could. Somehow 24 hr shopping and free ketchup at McDonalds would not hold me there.

Last edited by Odile; 17.12.2012 at 19:09.
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  #382  
Old 17.12.2012, 18:59
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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So was mine!!!

Crazies will be crazy and do crazy.

Why have a situation that allows that crazy to be with something so inherently lethal? Something which was designed from day one to kill - no matter what other uses have been found for the design.

Anyway, anyone going to provide an answer to the number of times the USA has required its civilians to take up arms and form a militia against an invading force?
Er twice.. 1777 and 1812 both against their old mates ..us
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  #383  
Old 17.12.2012, 19:03
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Crazed youth shoots youngsters in school

Shouldn't we be looking at the subject of this statement rather than the verb, i.e. crazed youth, or shall we run straight at the verb like a bull at a gate.
I think most people would agree that the verb is indeed the most important part of that sentence, so of course that's where we should concentrate.

Suggesting otherwise is ridiculous. Let's not worry about the fact that he killed dozens of people, but instead focus our efforts on the state on Mental Health Care in the US. Yeah, that makes sense.
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  #384  
Old 17.12.2012, 19:03
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Er twice.. 1777 and 1812 both against their old mates ..us
So that is fewer than then number of gun massacres committed in the USA since 2007 - 6 if you are counting.
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  #385  
Old 17.12.2012, 19:04
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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You're not going to mention alien abduction too, are you?

Please lay off the action movies, will you?
What action movies?

People seem to forget or overlook that some of the most violent acts by individuals in my country (9/11, Oklahoma City bombing, first WTC bombing) were perpetrated by individuals that did not have guns and that the scenarios that actually played out were deemed "implausible" prior to them happening...
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  #386  
Old 17.12.2012, 19:06
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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I think most people would agree that the verb is indeed the most important part of that sentence, so of course that's where we should concentrate.

Suggesting otherwise is ridiculous. Let's not worry about the fact that he killed dozens of people, but instead focus our efforts on the state on Mental Health Care in the US. Yeah, that makes sense.
Had we done so, might we have identified this person much sooner, and prevented this from happening?
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  #387  
Old 17.12.2012, 19:13
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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You don't get groaned 'just because you are pro-gun ownership' - but because the pro-gun lobby refuses to take any responsibility, refuses to even consider ways to try and prevent such killings - refuses to consider any changes and any limitation of their so-called 'freedom'. My parents always taught me that my 'freedom' stops when it begins to hurt people - and 20 toddlers is a lot of hurt
The progun lobby does much to fund education about responsible gun ownership, wildlife conservation, etc. It supports a responsible past time which gives sporting access to both young and old of both sexes. It has also lobbied longer and harder for more recognition for invalids in international events than any other sporting organisation.

Guns aside, if your freedom ends because you're in danger of hurting someone then you may as well surrender yourself to the nearest mugger right away.

It's my opinion that this terrible event should be used to look within society, not simply to attack gun ownership.
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  #388  
Old 17.12.2012, 19:13
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Had we done so, might we have identified this person much sooner, and prevented this from happening?
Sure, and if his mum didn't have all those guns in the house...?
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  #389  
Old 17.12.2012, 19:19
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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I think most people would agree that the verb is indeed the most important part of that sentence, so of course that's where we should concentrate.

Suggesting otherwise is ridiculous. Let's not worry about the fact that he killed dozens of people, but instead focus our efforts on the state on Mental Health Care in the US. Yeah, that makes sense.
Well doesn't it? Have you worked in health care I have.
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  #390  
Old 17.12.2012, 19:19
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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You don't get groaned 'just because you are pro-gun ownership' - but because the pro-gun lobby refuses to take any responsibility, refuses to even consider ways to try and prevent such killings - refuses to consider any changes and any limitation of their so-called 'freedom'. My parents always taught me that my 'freedom' stops when it begins to hurt people - and 20 toddlers is a lot of hurt

Nobody is naive enough to think there is an easy solution, for all sorts of reasons - but the refusal to even consider changes is just totally irresponsible. Why is the US so totally out of sink with the rest of the world - and refusing to admit it.

If I lived int he US and had children - I'd get out of there as quickly as I could.
When did I say I represented the pro-gun lobby in the US? So why would I be painted with this brush? I've neither advocated for private ownership of assault weapons, nor have I ever hurt another person with my freedom.

I've posited that the problem is much bigger than guns, and that simply blaming guns is disingenuous and emotive, and regulating guns doesn't address the underlying issues. I've pointed out problems that require changes much more significant than simply writing another law, but because I won't join the general chorus clamoring for simplistic gun-control laws, it gets overlooked, I get stereotyped, and the whinge about guns continues on. This problem goes so much deeper than guns, and simply focusing on guns as this thread has done, ignores all the other issues, that when combined, paint a much much bleaker picture of my country that tells me that if we don't change important aspects of our culture, things will become so terrible that we will look back on this time as the "Good Old Days."
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  #391  
Old 17.12.2012, 19:22
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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I can't apologize for not having the answers; I will gladly admit it is much easier to point out problems than to solve them. However, I would rather attempt to identify the illness than simply point to symptoms and slap a band-aid over the greater problem. Further, I wasn't criticizing another's suggestions, as there were no suggestions, just the verbatim reposting of a news article that stated anyone that supported access to firearms was complicit in the killing of these children, a premise that is simply false, foolish, and offensive.
You make it sound like using band-aid and fighting the symptoms is a bad thing. I agree long-term one would hope to solve the greater problems of these incidents but if 'band-aid' saves hundreds of lives now while the root cause is being dealt with, is that such a bad thing?
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  #392  
Old 17.12.2012, 19:26
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Sure, and if his mum didn't have all those guns in the house...?
Why is one aspect (guns) getting the attention, while the rest of this gets little more than lip service?

Like I've said, take away the guns, and you slow the downward spiral. Slowing the spiral IS a good thing, but I'm afraid my countrymen, being easily distracted as they are by the next sensational thing, will grow complacent in the slowed spiral, and the underlying problem will remain and fester until it rots my country from within... This probably won't happen in my lifetime, but I'd rather try to stop the problem now, and not by automatically sacrificing freedoms to do this.
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  #393  
Old 17.12.2012, 19:26
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Sure, and if his mum didn't have all those guns in the house...?
I've spoken to your carer already about those cutlery knives.
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  #394  
Old 17.12.2012, 19:27
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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It is the inalienable right of every American to believe whatever they feel is "right" as long as they don't have to do anything to change a system based on independence from England 240 years ago, spend a dollar on making the world a better place for someone other than themselves and have the right to kill each other on a frequent basis because that's how they define and interpret "freedom".

Logic is pointless. Ask any American who now lives abroad in a peaceful nation and they too are only shaking their heads with the rest of us wondering how many more innocents need to die before someone starts actually caring for human life rather than just talking about it. In the meantime, an alarmingly high minority are still themselves for an Armageddon that will never arrive. It's not just the President's job to make the wishes of the majority heard, it's the time for majority to take on some responsibility and elect politicians who represent what they really want.
Exactly! Where is the responsibility to each of them to just take their guns and get rid of the ? Why the need of a president to tell them to do it? A law to force them to do it?

The responsibility is to everyone who own guns to bring it to an end.
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  #395  
Old 17.12.2012, 19:29
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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The responsibility is to everyone who own guns to bring it to an end.
Sadly, I just don't have that kind of faith in humanity.
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  #396  
Old 17.12.2012, 19:30
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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You make it sound like using band-aid and fighting the symptoms is a bad thing. I agree long-term one would hope to solve the greater problems of these incidents but if 'band-aid' saves hundreds of lives now while the root cause is being dealt with, is that such a bad thing?
Its a half-measure, and unfortunately, I feel that many Americans are so easily distracted and have such simplistic outlooks (look at the quality of public education in the US) that they'll jump on the quick solution so they can go back to watching television and playing video games, and leave the problem to fester into the next generation. I think that, if there is a greater tragedy than these shootings, its that we don't seize the opportunity to truly have a frank and intelligent discussion of why they are happening. If we don't truly change, and we don't truly learn, then these deaths become doubly, quadruply a tragedy...
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Old 17.12.2012, 19:40
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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Sadly, I just don't have that kind of faith in humanity.
Me neither.... It is much easier to put all the fault on the government.

By the way, did you see this aberration? Not related to guns but to how stupids people can be.
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  #398  
Old 17.12.2012, 19:53
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

Ok, just because everyone have the right to have a weapon, does NOT mean that everyone are entitled imo.

What is wrong with gun control, and that you must have a license?

That seems to be a good compromise..."but NO, automatic rifles for everyone, whether people are able and capable to handle these weapons is irrelevant..."

We will see a future where 6 year olds are running around with uzis...nice evolution...
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Old 17.12.2012, 20:04
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Its a half-measure, and unfortunately, I feel that many Americans are so easily distracted and have such simplistic outlooks (look at the quality of public education in the US) that they'll jump on the quick solution so they can go back to watching television and playing video games, and leave the problem to fester into the next generation. I think that, if there is a greater tragedy than these shootings, its that we don't seize the opportunity to truly have a frank and intelligent discussion of why they are happening. If we don't truly change, and we don't truly learn, then these deaths become doubly, quadruply a tragedy...
I agree with you to some extent. Guns facilitate the violence, but the root cause is something more. Most of the shooters are socially isolated. That is what we have to understand first and foremost. What does it mean, who is at risk? I don't think it's just guns, or just medication, or single parent households. It's not kids with autism or ADD, and neither is it kids wearing black. It has to do with feeling totally alone, angry and being desensitized to violence. Maybe there's parnoia, fear, but it seems like lots of anger. And then, if you can get your hands on a gun.....it becomes a perfect storm.

And i think the media glorifies this - if you've been forgotten most of your life, here's a chance to be notorious. And again, blinded by anger. I think jane austen said, "angry people are not always wise".

The US values individuality, and i think its in our nature to keep to ourselves, even though we tend toward extraversion.

i don't know for sure. It's a tough problem. It's complicated, it's cultural.
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Old 17.12.2012, 20:06
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Why wait 100 years? We didn't get to this point in 100 years; I would opine that we got here in my own parents' lifetimes (less than 60 years). We have to start solving the problem today. Slowly working towards something in the instant-gratification, short-sighted culture that is coming to define America won't work. The US has progressively added more gun-control laws, and, as I said in my previous response, Americans have allowed these laws to substitute for good upbringing, common social values, and identifying these individuals earlier. I don't want our shortsightedness to allow us to drink the gun-control DayQuil and ignore the raging pneumonia in American culture.
none of these statements are factually accurate. first of all, there were millions of children who had lost fathers as a result of war, or whose fathers returned from foreign wars a mere shadow of their former selves, i.e. the reality of life for most children was considerably more violent. second of all, guns were considerably harder to go out and buy - handguns were damn near impossible to find, and semi-automatic weapons totally impossible.

"gun control" in the US is a myth when an 18 year old child can stroll into a Walmart, a local trade show or a Joe's Army & Navy Surplus and choose from dozens of different weapons. after that, all a CCW permit requires is a brief wait at the local Secretary of State, completion of a simple application, a fingerprint and a 4-6 week waiting period.

if you were diagnosed with cancer (and God knows I do not wish that on anybody), would you refuse treatment for any of the symptoms while you waited for a potential cure?
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