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Old 17.12.2012, 19:12
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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Ok, just because everyone have the right to have a weapon, does NOT mean that everyone are entitled imo.
I hate to keep belaboring the same point, but it is simply not accurate to say that everybody in the US has the right to have a weapon. the current situation is nothing more than bad reading comprehension on the part of our Supreme Court, and although it would take a sea-change in politics all that is really needed is a correct reading of the English language by our Supreme Court.

as much as the continued violence disturbs me, what bothers me the most is that there are tens (if not hundreds) of millions of Americans who actually believe that they have an "inalienable right" to own whatever weapons they want, which was never intended by the founders.
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  #402  
Old 17.12.2012, 19:30
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

Maybe one day in the future, if we ever send humans to Mars or beyond in search of new life, the Planet Earth could agree to send a couple of Tibetan monks rather than some NRA influenced American who even thinks they ought to defend their mentally deficient gun laws.
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Old 17.12.2012, 20:02
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

Airport gates

The only guaranteed place in the US where there are no concealed weapons.

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  #404  
Old 17.12.2012, 20:08
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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I've spoken to your carer already about those cutlery knives.
Indeed, some people are appalled that I regularly carry a knife with a 10" blade when I travel (only because most people have crappy knives at home).

Really.

Tom
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Old 17.12.2012, 20:11
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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The system won't let me give one word answers. But I'm willing to say yes. Permit me to ask you a question in return. Do you think that the gunman could have been stopped if a teacher had quick access to a firearm?
are you for real? if gunman comes opens the door and you have to go get the gun from where you have it, not even in the matrix would they have got it so fast as to shoot the gunman first.
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  #406  
Old 17.12.2012, 20:16
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

Hopefully, the gun debate will move from words to deeds. Ultimately, the 2nd Amendment will have to be addressed.

There are two options. First, outright repeal of the 2nd Amendment. Amendments have been repealed before. The 21st Amendment repealed the 18th Amendment(Alcohol prohibition). Difficultly lies in the fact that the 2nd is one of the original Bill of Rights.

Second, the federal govt could try to revise or limit the 2nd Amendment. But that goes against the 10th Amendment, limiting the powers of the federal govt to those delegated to it by the Constitution.

Either way the likely hood of Congress ratifying a new Amendment is very small. First it would require 2/3 of both houses to propose an Amendment. Then it has to be ratified by 3/4 of the states.

Even though emotions are currently sky high, I don't think sentiment is strong enough to overcome these constitutional barriers.
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Old 17.12.2012, 20:17
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

OK, unlike most posters here I am from the area, born and raised, until I moved here half a lifetime ago.

My sister is an elementary school teacher in Danbury, and knew the deceased principal (wife of her fifth grade teacher).

I have had friends, co-workers, and school-mates from Newtown.

So, all you armchair quarterbacks, please f... off.

Especially the foreigners (of which I are now one)

Thank you.

Tom
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  #408  
Old 17.12.2012, 20:19
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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The progun lobby does much to fund education about responsible gun ownership, wildlife conservation, etc. It supports a responsible past time which gives sporting access to both young and old of both sexes. It has also lobbied longer and harder for more recognition for invalids in international events than any other sporting organisation.

Guns aside, if your freedom ends because you're in danger of hurting someone then you may as well surrender yourself to the nearest mugger right away.

It's my opinion that this terrible event should be used to look within society, not simply to attack gun ownership.
Not enough obviously and the majority of gun owners don't own them for sports.
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  #409  
Old 17.12.2012, 20:24
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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OK, unlike most posters here I am from the area, born and raised, until I moved here half a lifetime ago.

My sister is an elementary school teacher in Danbury, and knew the deceased principal (wife of her fifth grade teacher).

I have had friends, co-workers, and school-mates from Newtown.

So, all you armchair quarterbacks, please f... off.

Especially the foreigners (of which I are now one)

Thank you.

Tom
That's a very negative response (certainly not like you at all) to which I would expect from some who knows they are in the wrong.

And with your sister being a teacher and her known the teacher that was shot, I would have expected a different attitude.
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  #410  
Old 17.12.2012, 20:33
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Its a half-measure, and unfortunately, I feel that many Americans are so easily distracted and have such simplistic outlooks (look at the quality of public education in the US) that they'll jump on the quick solution so they can go back to watching television and playing video games, and leave the problem to fester into the next generation. I think that, if there is a greater tragedy than these shootings, its that we don't seize the opportunity to truly have a frank and intelligent discussion of why they are happening. If we don't truly change, and we don't truly learn, then these deaths become doubly, quadruply a tragedy...

Thanks. I am at least beginning to understand your way of thinking..Not that I agree with it. but still

I would argue all security measures combat symptoms. Be it security checks at airports, car alarms or alcohol limits and checks for drivers. Heck aren't prisons basically just a massive band-aid to cover up all the undesirables with? I would say very few people would argue we should all just drop these because they don't deal with the core issue.

I would additionally argue after this attack it should be the final straw and while I agree with you that the core issues need to be address, I find highest priority needs to be given to preventing these attacks happening again and preventing schools being turned into something resembling a high security prison.

Up till now as you say people have just got outraged, sad and after a few days forgot all about it. This time measures must be taken. The only clear definite thing that has been proven that doing nothing won't stop these attacks occuring
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  #411  
Old 17.12.2012, 20:36
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

There have been no school shootings in the UK since Dunblane.

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[edit]Gun control
The Gun Control Network was founded in the aftermath of the shootings and was supported by some parents of victims at Dunblane and of the Hungerford Massacre.[12] Bereaved families and their friends also initiated a campaign to ban private gun ownership, named the Snowdrop Petition (because March is snowdrop time in Scotland), which gained 705,000 signatures in support and was supported by some newspapers, including the Sunday Mail, a Scottish newspaper whose own petition to ban handguns had raised 428,279 signatures within five weeks of the massacre.
The Cullen Inquiry into the massacre recommended that the government introduce tighter controls on handgun ownership[13] and consider whether an outright ban would be in the public interest.[14] The report also recommended changes in school security[15] and vetting of people working with children under 18.[16] The Home Affairs Select Committee agreed with the need for restrictions on gun ownership but stated that a handgun ban was not appropriate.
In response to this public debate, the then-current Conservative government introduced a ban on all cartridge ammunition handguns with the exception of .22 calibre single-shot weapons in England, Scotland and Wales. Following the 1997 General Election, the Labour government of Tony Blair introduced the Firearms (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1997, banning the remaining .22 cartridge handguns in England, Scotland and Wales, and leaving only muzzle-loading and historic handguns legal, as well as certain sporting handguns (e.g. "Long-Arms") that fall outside the Home Office Definition of a "Handgun" due to their dimensions. The ban does not affect Northern Ireland, the Isle of Man, or the Channel Islands.
Security in schools, particularly primary schools, was improved in response to the Dunblane massacre and two other violent incidents which occurred at around the same time: the murder of Philip Lawrence, a head teacher in London, and the wounding of six children and Lisa Potts, a nursery teacher, at a Wolverhampton nursery school.
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  #412  
Old 17.12.2012, 20:54
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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Me neither.... It is much easier to put all the fault on the government.

By the way, did you see this aberration? Not related to guns but to how stupids people can be.
Interestingly enough, this is quite the insight into the american culture. Football is a barbaric sport---although I enjoy watching it, and playing it immensely, there is something to be said about the pressure certain american families put on young males to excel in this sport. On a simpler level, it is a barbaric aggressive sport of physical dominance, power and fame. For those who have had experience in the north american school system, there is a general trend of success and respect given to the best football players--essentially to the best barbarian. There are many cases, under such sport-based social pressure, that the intelligent, the intellectuals, and those who just don't subscribe to such ideas are ridiculed and outcast. These include the situations where some, too afraid of being outcast for not following the typical social 'trends', become introverted and alienated: with severe complexes building up unbeknownst to others. Such anti-social tenancies could build up without release, until a certain break-point, a trigger...where common sense and logic is lost, and all that is left is a desire to have the fame(reads: infamy) which the distorted person felt they deserved but felt was wrongly given out.

I'm not saying that this is the situation here, but there is a trend with such tragedies. Gun access is definitely a factor to the intensity of this past tragedy, but blaming the 2nd amendment is only a small portion of the "american" culture which has a more likely tendency to breed such cases. In the same culture, one must also see the Unibomber and the Oklahoma City bombing where guns played a very little role to the psychologically out-phased individual. Also the 911 attack was undertaken with essentially just house-hold items.

Of course, I used football only as a minute example, it is not the norm. A good majority of football players are normal and outstanding citizens (although perhaps of a shorted lifespan), but just pointing out that there are many parts of the society that have bred the high number of such tragedies.
The same collection of social issues and competitions could potentially describe the financial crash through the false ideas of entitlement and buying and living beyond one's means, but by social pressure.

I do agree that there is a good chance that guns played a role in the severity of this specific incident, but the perpetrator could have easily done just as bad, even worse without guns if (im)famy was his goal. I personally don't have a solution, other than years of social and psychological reform, but that is just as tough as implementing strict gun control at this point, but the latter would make little difference to the disturbed attempting to claim their fame.
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  #413  
Old 17.12.2012, 20:57
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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Hopefully, the gun debate will move from words to deeds. Ultimately, the 2nd Amendment will have to be addressed.

There are two options. First, outright repeal of the 2nd Amendment. Amendments have been repealed before. The 21st Amendment repealed the 18th Amendment(Alcohol prohibition). Difficultly lies in the fact that the 2nd is one of the original Bill of Rights.

Second, the federal govt could try to revise or limit the 2nd Amendment. But that goes against the 10th Amendment, limiting the powers of the federal govt to those delegated to it by the Constitution.

Either way the likely hood of Congress ratifying a new Amendment is very small. First it would require 2/3 of both houses to propose an Amendment. Then it has to be ratified by 3/4 of the states.

Even though emotions are currently sky high, I don't think sentiment is strong enough to overcome these constitutional barriers.
here is the text of the Second Amendment:

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

the right to bear arms was only ever intended to inure to the people in connection with military service. what it is going to take is the death of Scalia, a state to pass the right restrictive law and the Supreme Court to fix 100 years of poor reading comprehension.

the only alternative is for Obama to exercise his emergency power, but that would have horrible long-term consequences.
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  #414  
Old 17.12.2012, 20:58
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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OK, unlike most posters here I am from the area, born and raised, until I moved here half a lifetime ago.

My sister is an elementary school teacher in Danbury, and knew the deceased principal (wife of her fifth grade teacher).

I have had friends, co-workers, and school-mates from Newtown.

So, all you armchair quarterbacks, please f... off.

Especially the foreigners (of which I are now one)

Thank you.

Tom
Then, with all due respect - I suggest you take a neutral stance in this thread and stop groaning people left, right and centre if they don't have the same pro-gun view as you.
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  #415  
Old 17.12.2012, 21:00
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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Then, with all due respect - I suggest you take a neutral stance in this thread and stop groaning people left, right and centre if they don't have the same pro-gun view as you.
I am NOT pro-gun, I simply am not ANTI-gun.

Grow up.

Tom
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Old 17.12.2012, 21:02
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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I am NOT pro-gun, I simply am not ANTI-gun.

Grow up.

Tom
I would say, including myself the majority posting on the subject are not anti gun.
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  #417  
Old 17.12.2012, 21:14
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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What action movies?

People seem to forget or overlook that some of the most violent acts by individuals in my country (9/11, Oklahoma City bombing, first WTC bombing) were perpetrated by individuals that did not have guns and that the scenarios that actually played out were deemed "implausible" prior to them happening...
And guns didn't stop them happening either which was the opposite of what you were hinting at.
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  #418  
Old 17.12.2012, 21:20
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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I am NOT pro-gun, I simply am not ANTI-gun.

Grow up.

Tom
i also have connections to the area- friends i grew up with teach in danbury too and having been a teacher not that far away i understand it's really frustrating to have an attachment that goes beyond the forum to a tragedy like this.

that being said, we know about the gun culture, i'm sure you know the people who are staunch pro gun and those who are staunchly not, even in new england there is a major controversy with guns- think massachusetts and new hampshire

imho for all those who are toting their rights there needs to be empathy and practicality right now. the laws of hundreds of years ago can't possibly be all that relevant to right now, especially given these circumstances and the prevalence of violence. yes, i'm in favor of people's rights but as a kindergarten teacher when there is a group of students playing with the blocks and one kid starts to throw them, it's time for everyone to clean up and start their writing activities, so to speak.
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  #419  
Old 17.12.2012, 21:20
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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are you for real? if gunman comes opens the door and you have to go get the gun from where you have it, not even in the matrix would they have got it so fast as to shoot the gunman first.
How on earth can you tell? There is plenty of evidence to prove that having a weapon to hand has saved lives. Sadly there is also plenty to prove that not having one has cost lives.
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  #420  
Old 17.12.2012, 21:30
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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How on earth can you tell? There is plenty of evidence to prove that having a weapon to hand has saved lives. Sadly there is also plenty to prove that not having one has cost lives.
I am sure having guns in the wrong hands accounts for more lives than either of your examples added together, by a long way.

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