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  #441  
Old 18.12.2012, 10:07
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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So after 14 hours no one is able to provide a reasoned argument of why "an average Joe" should own a gun.

Come on guys - give it a go.
Its not going to happen.

I have asked three or four times if the boy or his mother did not have easy access to the guns would the kids have been shot.

I have had two answer saying no, none of the 'pro guns' have answered, which 'speaks volumes'.


I have just come across this in the news:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20763749

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Democrats Mark Warner and Joe Manchin, who have "A" ratings from the National Rifle Association (NRA), now say action is needed after the massacre.
OK someone needs to explain this to me, the NRA are rating politicians?
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  #442  
Old 18.12.2012, 10:12
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?



The wild, wild west is still alive and shooting.

Is there an app that shoots bullets?
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  #443  
Old 18.12.2012, 10:23
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

Can we summerize?

Pro allowing guns:
Self defence
Freedom
Making laws aginst guns would be too complicated and expensive to implement
Dealing with guns won't solve the underlying problems
Criminals will keep using guns
As long as civilians are armed, they can prevent or protect crime

Against:
Guns are dangerous
Give a false sense of power to people who would otherwise be too cowardly to attack
End up in the wrong hands
Too available
Even minimizing widespread availabilty would lower numbers of deaths
Have very few positive uses
More guns create more fear and distrust
Unlike other weapons, guns can be used from a distance
Gun owners are more likely to engage in risky behavior

Did i leave anything out?
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  #444  
Old 18.12.2012, 10:27
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Can we summerize?

Did i leave anything out?
Objectively, not much. Subjectively, you forgot anger and fear. The driving force behind the issue.
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  #445  
Old 18.12.2012, 10:27
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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There are many cases, under such sport-based social pressure, that the intelligent, the intellectuals, and those who just don't subscribe to such ideas are ridiculed and outcast. These include the situations where some, too afraid of being outcast for not following the typical social 'trends', become introverted and alienated: with severe complexes building up unbeknownst to others. Such anti-social tenancies could build up without release, until a certain break-point, a trigger...where common sense and logic is lost, and all that is left is a desire to have the fame(reads: infamy) which the distorted person felt they deserved but felt was wrongly given out.
I agree Chemmie, even if I object to the football accusation, but you're right. The whole American way of life is built on this foundation that success is the only way, you're bombarded with this perfect imagery of perfect people driving sexy cars, groomed to perfection, living in lakeside condos with Miss Gorgeous pouting and ready to make perfect babies to continue the American Dream.

And yet the reality isn't that way. Sure it can be the land of opportunity if you're born in the right neighborhood, but you may have been an unwanted child with no idea who your father is and your mom may be on crack and working three shifts to pay the rent and feed her addiction. Your "opportunities" are rather limited under these circumstances. And then there's the perennial pressure to perform as a kid, beat your personal best, go for gold, bigger, better, faster, richer - it's an endless unobtainable carrot dangling from an ever longer stick. Then some people just snap, they don't see a way to ever take a bite of the bait, they think that they can taste it, but it's not satisfying. So they turn the situation around on its head, if I can't be remembered as being the school quarterback with a 50 touchdown season, I'll become the anti-Christ and kill those who I know deep inside should be the ones that we care for the most. Nothing will put you in the evil spotlight better than killing children; helpless, innocent kids, locked into classrooms with no hope for escape.

And the method is is largely irrelevant, but it sure helps if mom is a gun loving member of society. So you take the ingredients, throw in some self-created messed up reasoning and then before you know it a TV crew from CNN is hanging out on the sidewalk in front of your family's home.

There'll be a few weeks of mourning, but Hollywood will be back with more violence for you at Christmas, let the bullets fly, let the perfect people with perfect bodies kill the "unclean" bad guys. Because America loves winners, just don't embrace the under-privileged or losers, for they will be perennially outcast.
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  #446  
Old 18.12.2012, 10:33
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Can we summerize?

Pro allowing guns:
Self defence
Freedom
Making laws aginst guns would be too complicated and expensive to implement
Dealing with guns won't solve the underlying problems
Criminals will keep using guns
As long as civilians are armed, they can prevent or protect crime

Against:
Guns are dangerous
Give a false sense of power to people who would otherwise be too cowardly to attack
End up in the wrong hands
Too available
Even minimizing widespread availabilty would lower numbers of deaths
Have very few positive uses
More guns create more fear and distrust
Unlike other weapons, guns can be used from a distance
Gun owners are more likely to engage in risky behavior

Did i leave anything out?
Pro allowing guns:
  • Self defence - Really, if a gun is locked in a cabinet, that's self defence?
  • Freedom - Tell that to the kids and their parents. Any sane person would give up a the freedom to own a gun to save lives.
  • Making laws against guns would be too complicated and expensive to implement - It shouldn't be and its all about the money, money, money.
  • Dealing with guns won't solve the underlying problems - what underlying problems does the US have that other countries don't have?
  • Criminals will keep using guns - like all countries but if there was a lack of supply it pushes up the price meaning your two bit criminal on the street can not afford a gun.
  • As long as civilians are armed, they can prevent or protect crime - like they did on Friday?

Against:
  • Guns are dangerous - Only in the wrong hands.
  • Give a false sense of power to people who would otherwise be too cowardly to attack - Again in the wrong hands
  • End up in the wrong hands - - As I said
  • Too available - Yep which is the problem
  • Even minimizing widespread availabilty would lower numbers of deaths - Correct
  • Have very few positive uses -Yep
  • More guns create more fear and distrust -Yep which in tunr makes more people have guns.
  • Unlike other weapons, guns can be used from a distance - Yep
  • Gun owners are more likely to engage in risky behaviour - No idea if that true or not

Pretty good summary I would suggest.
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  #447  
Old 18.12.2012, 10:43
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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However I have been robbed and threatened with a knife and wished I'd had a gun. Wouldn't you?
So death is a suitable punishment for armed robbery?

It is precisely because people think things like this that they shouldn't have guns.
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  #448  
Old 18.12.2012, 10:48
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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These cartoons and other kids and teenager shows from USA air in many countries around the world. So I think that the message they are and have spread has gone far and wide, a pity.

But the Swiss and German children shows that I have seen generaly do NOT have this revenge message to them. Perhaps only because that type of content is presented in the American shows?

Studies (and plain common sence) have shown that the most effective indoctrination occurs at an early age. Therefore it's the children shows that generaly have full on content of a negative nature, i.e revenge, racism, jealously, out of control ego's, greed, etc...

Fix up the kids shows and part of the problem will be solved.

Issues are not solved by arriving with a car (Batman) with twin machine guns and a utility belt with all types of weapons. All we have then is a circle of violence.
You know it does not matter what is on the Television. There is an option not to have those type of shows in your home. It is called the Off button on the TV. As parents we need to do the right thing by our children and be a parent not a buddy. I will not and do not let my child watch any show that is even sligthly violent. She only reallly watches the disney channel. It's a choice turn it off
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  #449  
Old 18.12.2012, 10:49
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Dealing with guns won't solve the underlying problems - what underlying problems does the US have that other countries don't have?
- Higher criminality maybe?
- A society with different and separate strata and clear and open distrust between groups, leading to an us vs. them mentality.
- More people in prison - where petty criminals can become real ones, thus increasing the overall criminal population.
- Acceptance of death penalty, meaning if it's OK for the state to kill people, then it is but a small step for individuals of a certain disposition to assume they can do the same.
- Laws such as "stand your ground" that effectively make people think they are allowed to shoot preemtively.

Tackle these things and you will find fewer gun-related deaths.
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  #450  
Old 18.12.2012, 10:51
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

Take the fear out of people and they won't need guns.

However, how does one cure "fear"?
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  #451  
Old 18.12.2012, 10:54
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Can we summerize?

Pro allowing guns:
Self defence
Freedom
Making laws aginst guns would be too complicated and expensive to implement
Dealing with guns won't solve the underlying problems
Criminals will keep using guns
As long as civilians are armed, they can prevent or protect crime

Against:
Guns are dangerous
Give a false sense of power to people who would otherwise be too cowardly to attack
End up in the wrong hands
Too available
Even minimizing widespread availabilty would lower numbers of deaths
Have very few positive uses
More guns create more fear and distrust
Unlike other weapons, guns can be used from a distance
Gun owners are more likely to engage in risky behavior

Did i leave anything out?
Yes just a couple of things

Pro:
- sporting for all, including handicapped people
- more regulation is the 'thin end of the wedge' for more restrictive laws

Against:
why are gun owners more likely to engage in risky behaviour? In my experience you have to be completely law abiding and of good character to get a license. However I suppose we are talking about the US and not Switzerland or UK.
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  #452  
Old 18.12.2012, 11:06
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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So death is a suitable punishment for armed robbery?

It is precisely because people think things like this that they shouldn't have guns.
So I was just lucky this idiot didn't stab me and did I say that I would deliberately kill him? Of course if he did try and stab me would I not be in my right to stop him? From your tone I'm glad you weren't there you'd have probably encouraged him. This happened on a bus in Lausanne actually.
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  #453  
Old 18.12.2012, 11:06
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Yes just a couple of things

Pro:
- sporting for all, including handicapped people
- more regulation is the 'thin end of the wedge' for more restrictive laws

Against:
why are gun owners more likely to engage in risky behaviour? In my experience you have to be completely law abiding and of good character to get a license. However I suppose we are talking about the US and not Switzerland or UK.
I don't know. I was summerizing points I found in the thread. A few posts ago, someone argued that those owning guns are more likely to need them. I interepeted it to mean they would more likely be in risky situations. Maybe that poster can back up his/her claim.
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  #454  
Old 18.12.2012, 11:07
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Well, Australia flat outright banned assault rifles and shotguns after the massacre in Tasmania in 1996. According to this source they had 12 killing sprees in the 18 years prior to that and none since. The overall risk of getting killed by shotguns was reduced by 50%.
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/ausland/...story/30827253
Australia certainly has more dangerous wildlife than the US, thus all those 'I need my AK-47 replica in order to go hunting for cougars' arguments are not really valid either.
This was definitely a great achievement for population safety and gun control, a great example of working gun control. Canada also has prohibitions on assault rifles, shotguns as well as handguns (to some extent). In canada a good majority of gun crimes are committed with prohibited and illegal (unregistered weapons) from the black market. This is the main reason that the successful programs in Australia have not been successful in Canada and the US. The sheer number of firearms in these countries would see a huge dangerous black market if similar bans were put into effect. I agree that something has to be done, but a knee-jerk reaction is just as dangerous if not worse with extreme time/money and the only results is a false sense of accomplishment to those strongly against guns.
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  #455  
Old 18.12.2012, 11:09
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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So I was just lucky this idiot didn't stab me and did I say that I would deliberately kill him? Of course if he did try and stab me would I not be in my right to stop him? From your tone I'm glad you weren't there you'd have probably encouraged him. This happened on a bus in Lausanne actually.
Guns aren't the only way to stop a stabbing. I am sure pepper spray would have done the job. In any case that sounds scary, and i am sure you are releived to be alright.
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  #456  
Old 18.12.2012, 11:09
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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I'd be interested in a link to the "plenty of evidence". in the meantime, here is some very, very simple math for you, from a native Detroiter - if you own a gun, you are more likely to need to use it than if you don't own a gun.
Here is that link I promised. It's from a site that favours gun ownership so I guess like everything else in the world its biased.

http://gunssavelives.net/
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  #457  
Old 18.12.2012, 11:16
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Here is that link I promised. It's from a site that favours gun ownership so I guess like everything else in the world its biased.

http://gunssavelives.net/
2 of the top 3 stories are about homeowners shooting a "sex offender" and a "burglar", both of whom were apparently unarmed. in both cases, I suppose that the homeowner stopped a crime from occurring, but I'm not sure that either situation resulted in a life being saved. in fact, exactly the opposite seems to have occurred.
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  #458  
Old 18.12.2012, 11:17
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

Sorry if has been mentioned prior, but saw a report that the PC of the gunman found in the school dead after the massacre, had been destroyed, hard disc ruined and that they possibly would not be able to take data from it.

Unsure if confirmed, but thought that was an interesting addition to the story.

Wonder why he would do that, and what he was exactly hiding.

That said, I thought they, with they being the collective intelligence agencies, have ways of getting the data no matter what.
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  #459  
Old 18.12.2012, 11:23
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Well, Australia flat outright banned assault rifles and shotguns after the massacre in Tasmania in 1996. According to this source they had 12 killing sprees in the 18 years prior to that and none since. The overall risk of getting killed by shotguns was reduced by 50%.
http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/ausland/...story/30827253
Australia certainly has more dangerous wildlife than the US, thus all those 'I need my AK-47 replica in order to go hunting for cougars' arguments are not really valid either.
I'm not sure that all shotguns were proscribed, I think it was just pump action types.
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  #460  
Old 18.12.2012, 11:26
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Following your logic:
If I wanted to rob someone
and had reason to believe that my victim might be armed with a gun
and had easy access to a gun myself
I'd upgrade from the knife to something more convincing. Wouldn't you ?

What would you be looking for in this case ? A rocket launcher ?

An RPG would be a little difficult to conceal no? Seriously, if I was a feral robbing type I would definitely choose a less responsive prey than an armed citizen.
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