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  #481  
Old 18.12.2012, 12:48
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Sure. And while you're about it what about "people who were killed by an assailant after they tried to fight them off with a weapon". I suspect this one might be slightly larger.

Point is that your logic is based on instinct, combined with social conditioning, but when you put these instincts to the test it's actually very difficult to find any evidence to support them.
Hmm I'm not sure I'm being put to any sort of test here. I've made some reasoned responses in favour of gun ownership that I believe to be sound. I've tried successfully to keep emotional instinct out of it. I've mentioned one personal incident. If I have been part of a test please could you send me my scores and the means by which you have awarded them.
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  #482  
Old 18.12.2012, 12:50
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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I apologise. Would my death have been preferable to you?
But you have been robbed not killed.

YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO DECIDE ON CAPITAL PUNISHMENT FOR ROBBERY!
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  #483  
Old 18.12.2012, 12:54
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Canada also has prohibitions on assault rifles, shotguns as well as handguns (to some extent). In canada a good majority of gun crimes are committed with prohibited and illegal (unregistered weapons) from the black market in the US, where guns are easily available. This is the main reason that the successful programs in Australia have not been successful in Canada and the US. The sheer number of firearms in these countries would see a huge dangerous black market if similar bans were put into effect. I agree that something has to be done, but a knee-jerk reaction is just as dangerous if not worse with extreme time/money and the only results is a false sense of accomplishment to those strongly against guns.
FTFY. Australia does not have a neighboring country with a market for guns like the US.
This is also why Mexican politicians are pleading to the US for years now to control the sale of assault weapons more stringently in order to limit the number of murders in Mexico. Unfortunately to no avail.
(And yes, I know that some of those atrocities are committed with machetes etc....)
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  #484  
Old 18.12.2012, 12:56
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Trust is not a valid reason?
No, it's not a reason at all. Trust may be relevant to why someone may be allowed to have a gun, but not why they _should_ have one. Different things altogether.
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Old 18.12.2012, 12:59
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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I've made some reasoned responses in favour of gun ownership that I believe to be sound.
No you did not!

You wrote
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"Trust"
Trust in what? That you are responsible to use the weapon only in legitimate cases? That anyone in your household is responsible enough so as not to misuse the gun? Trust that you are well trained to be able to use your gun without endangering innocent people around?

Trust in that by owning a gun (for the price of wide availability of guns -which means you are much more likely to be attacked with one) you are more secure than if you hadn't but your average Joe attacker wouldn't.

Trust that you are better at handling guns than the criminal attacking you?
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  #486  
Old 18.12.2012, 13:07
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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2 of the top 3 stories are about homeowners shooting a "sex offender" and a "burglar", both of whom were apparently unarmed. in both cases, I suppose that the homeowner stopped a crime from occurring, but I'm not sure that either situation resulted in a life being saved. in fact, exactly the opposite seems to have occurred.
You'll also need to count the numbers of inadvertent deaths because a gun-wielding home owner confused family members with burglars at night, because children are playing with handguns etc.
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  #487  
Old 18.12.2012, 13:11
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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I disagree completely. To say nothing of the logistics and impossibility of "taking away" 300 million guns, the fear that many of these Americans have has nothing to do with guns. It has to do with a changing place in the world and a gradual societal rejection of "values" they hold very dear. Guns are a symptom of this fear, not a cause. Obama said it best when he referred to these people as "clinging to their guns and religion".
Yes but people are also having guns by fear of the others with guns. And those are having guns too because of having fear of those who have guns, etc.

It is so easy to have access to guns. So if you can't get rid of them, what kind of control can you put into place? What can be done, realistically?
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  #488  
Old 18.12.2012, 13:11
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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But you have been robbed not killed.

YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO DECIDE ON CAPITAL PUNISHMENT FOR ROBBERY!
Please don't shout at me!

I never mentioned killing the idiot. I just related the fact that I wished I had one at the time.

He had a means to kill me and it was pretty scarey. At one he had one hand on my throat. I wasn't robbed as it happened. I pushed him back into his accomplice and he accidentally head butted him in the nose. I was even more worried after that, but the bus stopped and they got off at Blecherette. No one on the bus tried to help me but I don't blame them. I told the driver. Cops came, statements thats it.
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  #489  
Old 18.12.2012, 13:13
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

http://money.cnn.com/2012/12/18/news...us-bushmaster/
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Private equity firm Cerberus has put U.S. firearms maker Freedom Group up for sale following Friday's killing of 20 children and 6 adults at the Sandy Hook school shooting in Connecticut...
"It is apparent that the Sandy Hook tragedy was a watershed event that has raised the national debate on gun control to an unprecedented level," Cerberus said
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  #490  
Old 18.12.2012, 13:16
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Hmm I'm not sure I'm being put to any sort of test here. I've made some reasoned responses in favour of gun ownership that I believe to be sound. I've tried successfully to keep emotional instinct out of it. I've mentioned one personal incident. If I have been part of a test please could you send me my scores and the means by which you have awarded them.
0/10

Reason for low score: No valid arguments given.
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  #491  
Old 18.12.2012, 13:16
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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No, it's not a reason at all. Trust may be relevant to why someone may be allowed to have a gun, but not why they _should_ have one. Different things altogether.
Please be so gallant as to qoute me in its complete context not like some twisted tabloid journalist.
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  #492  
Old 18.12.2012, 13:19
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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0/10

Reason for low score: No valid arguments given.
Like I said no answers are enough I guess.
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  #493  
Old 18.12.2012, 13:22
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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No you did not!

You wrote
Trust in what? That you are responsible to use the weapon only in legitimate cases? That anyone in your household is responsible enough so as not to misuse the gun? Trust that you are well trained to be able to use your gun without endangering innocent people around?

Trust in that by owning a gun (for the price of wide availability of guns -which means you are much more likely to be attacked with one) you are more secure than if you hadn't but your average Joe attacker wouldn't.

Trust that you are better at handling guns than the criminal attacking you?
All of the above, yes. Nice one for the most part.
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  #494  
Old 18.12.2012, 13:22
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Trust. One word, very important though. However, I'm not out to convince you as I guess there will never be enough words for the anti-brigade.
Trust isn't measurable and is a bad reason to allow someone to have a gun.

"Are you trustworthy?"

"Yes"

"Then here's your gun, Sonny".

"Gee thanks, Ha Ha Ha, I'm a peanut butter sandwich, Ha Ha Ha!"

Soldiers and Policemen go through a rigorous selection process followed by months of training. The crazies don't usually get to the guns in public stage.
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Old 18.12.2012, 13:26
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Please be so gallant as to qoute me in its complete context not like some twisted tabloid journalist.
Eh? As far as I could tell, the dialogue, which was far too long to repeat, went something like
do i = 1 to 10 ;
print "Can you give me a valid reason for people to own guns?" ;
print gun_defence(i) ;
end;
print "No, but really, can you give me a valid reason for people to own guns?";
print "Trust." ;

What did I miss?
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Old 18.12.2012, 13:32
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I know that quoting Michael Moore isn't exactly a science but in his movie 'Bowling for Columbine" he had a cartoon section which also perpetrated the idea that Americans are fed fear to keep them in their place. It's a balance of fearing other races and cultures which feeds the urge to keep weapons which keeps some kind of fake reliance on central government to watch over its citizens. Perverse.

Nah, you're totally right. Although i would argue a good bit of governing is done by fear. Everywhere. It's just easy right now to look at the US. Moore isn't necessarily a science, but he has a good handle on human behavior and motivation. The way to keep people in line is by fear...if you don't protect yourself they're going to take away your stuff. I think the NRA uses this as a major marketing strategy. And i'm sure both sides use fear.
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  #497  
Old 18.12.2012, 13:33
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

Can you provide a reasoned argument for why a "good natured and trustworthy, above average Joe" should own a gun?
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Old 18.12.2012, 13:38
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Trust isn't measurable and is a bad reason to allow someone to have a gun.

"Are you trustworthy?"

"Yes"

"Then here's your gun, Sonny".

"Gee thanks, Ha Ha Ha, I'm a peanut butter sandwich, Ha Ha Ha!"

Soldiers and Policemen go through a rigorous selection process followed by months of training. The crazies don't usually get to the guns in public stage.
I agree but I was trying to qualify an answer I made about why we are willing to trust policemen, soldiers etc in comparison with averge joes not crazies.

I believe you can measure trust.
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Old 18.12.2012, 13:43
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Eh? As far as I could tell, the dialogue, which was far too long to repeat, went something like
do i = 1 to 10 ;
print "Can you give me a valid reason for people to own guns?" ;
print gun_defence(i) ;
end;
print "No, but really, can you give me a valid reason for people to own guns?";
print "Trust." ;

What did I miss?
Shit it's the terminator. Now where did I put my plasma rifle.
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Old 18.12.2012, 13:44
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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I agree but I was trying to qualify an answer I made about why we are willing to trust policemen, soldiers etc in comparison with averge joes not crazies.

I believe you can measure trust.
A measure of trust occurs at a single moment in time. A person who is deemed "trustworthy" at the point of gun purchase may become "untrustworthy" a year, a month, a week, a day later because of a change in circumstances.

An ordinary Joe, a sold family man, no criminal convictions, a blemish free record in fact - passes a "trust" test - and purchases a gun and ammunition. He walks out of the store with his child - around the corner comes a driver, knocks over and kills his child. In his grief Joe loads the gun and shoots the driver.

"Trust" is not measurable
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