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  #501  
Old 18.12.2012, 13:46
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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I believe you can measure trust.
Trust is a concept that cannot be measured. It's a feeling that cannot be weighed. Trust and hope are intertwined, with trust being the stronger of the two words.

"I trust you'll do the right thing."
"I hope you'll do the right thing."

Trust can only be measured by its five letters otherwise it's quite subjective.

And despite all this, we make life-changing decisions based on trust. People can be pretty gullible sometimes.

Edit: Dodgyken was quicker on the draw than me.
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  #502  
Old 18.12.2012, 13:49
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Can you provide a reasoned argument for why a "good natured and trustworthy, above average Joe" should own a gun?
Why are sporting purposes not considered valid reasons for a responsible person to own a gun?

I don't own a gun, nor do I want to, but I think it's disingenuous to suggest that there isn't any valid reason whatsoever to own one.
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  #503  
Old 18.12.2012, 13:53
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Can you provide a reasoned argument for why a "good natured and trustworthy, above average Joe" should own a gun?
OK.

- having a valid interest in sports shooting; target shooting, hunting etc
- having a valid interest in collecting and assessing firearms
- for home defence
- being a gunsmith
- inherited heirloom

All of which subject to police declaration. Contrary to experience I don't advocate concealed carry - I have enough problems not dropping my phone every day.
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  #504  
Old 18.12.2012, 13:59
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

Someone posted a list of pro- and anti- arguments for gun ownership earlier. Big items missed off the list are the love and testosterone factors. You can talk all you want about hunting, and the need to protect your family from drug-crazed sex offenders climbing through the window, but many people just seem to love guns, period. They seem to make them feel good about themselves. Weird, but there you are.

And it's this aspect that gets in the way of rational debate. We get bogged down in detail about this or that burglary incident proving that guns are needed, when really there is something more visceral and elemental going on in the gun-lover's underpants. Out with it.
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  #505  
Old 18.12.2012, 14:03
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Soldiers and Policemen go through a rigorous selection process followed by months of training. The crazies don't usually get to the guns in public stage.
I agree that Police and Military are highly trained. And still , their superiority in conflicts with "suspects" lays in organization, superior numbers, or being proactive , acting before the "suspect" can gain advantage ( pulling a gun out before the suspect, for example). Despite the training , we regularly hear of cops and military who shoot the wrong people. In NYC whose news I monitor regularly, there are a few such incidents per year.
What , besides fantasy makes one think that by carrying (concealed or open) they will effectively out-shoot a criminal, or an insane shooter on a spree?
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  #506  
Old 18.12.2012, 14:05
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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OK.

- having a valid interest in sports shooting; target shooting, hunting etc
- having a valid interest in collecting and assessing firearms
- for home defence
- being a gunsmith
- inherited heirloom

All of which subject to police declaration. Contrary to experience I don't advocate concealed carry - I have enough problems not dropping my phone every day.
Answering in order:
1) Could be achieved with either:
a) Air rifle type guns (sport/target)
b) Single bolt action (hunting)
c) Are you suggesting an "average Joe" living in the centre of a city should own an automatic rifle for the purposes of "hunting"? What about a 22-round Glock hand gun?"

2) If collecting, surely the guns would be disarmed (IE Unable to be fired)?

3) Please elaborate. Why would you need a gun for home defence?

4) If guns were not available to the public - but only military/police purposes - why would you need gunsmiths? Surely guns come first?

5) Surely this is just a rewording of 2?
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  #507  
Old 18.12.2012, 14:13
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Answering in order:
1) Could be achieved with either:
a) Air rifle type guns (sport/target)
b) Single bolt action (hunting)
c) Are you suggesting an "average Joe" living in the centre of a city should own an automatic rifle for the purposes of "hunting"? What about a 22-round Glock hand gun?"
Now you're being really disingenuous, and changing the goalposts of your argument. You repeatedly said gun. When provided with perfectly valid reasons to own a gun, you've changed the terms of the argument to automatic rifles (which are practically impossible to obtain, as they should be) and 22-round handguns (which obviously no one needs to hunt with) to people living in the middle of a city (which might still travel out the country to hunt).

I don't think any civilians need to own automatic rifles or 22 round glocks, but that's not what you originally asked, now is it?
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  #508  
Old 18.12.2012, 14:24
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

I'm too weary and sad to confront all the points brought up in this long thread but it's clear that most of us have fairly entrenched views. It seems difficult to get the gun advocates to answer some pretty simple questions that I think would help us approach the root of the debate.

If I may, just a general point I would make is that listing individual instances, or websites that list instances, of legitimate gun use is missing the point. I don't suppose even the most fervent anti-gun person would claim there are no examples available.

The problem is that the easy availability of guns, both in terms of acquiring them through lawful means, and them then getting into the hands of others less responsible/sane leads to very ugly incidents -- not just the recent school outrage but individual murders that I'm guessing happen every hour of the day and every day of the year across the country. I don't see how tighter legislation or extra forms to fill in or extra padlocks on the cupboard will change that one single iota. There will never be effective control, for the obvious reason that if a gun is to protect a household, it has to be easily available. No point in it being stored at the local police station or locked away in a gun safe under the floorboards.

It seems to me that, when all the emotions and the suggestions are boiled away, we are left with this conclusion -- that the gun lobby, while being as thoroughly horrified as anyone else by the school and cinema shootings, simply believe that these ghastly outrages are a price worth paying for what they perceive as the benefits for others.

When all is said and done, that's it. For them, Sandy Hook is regrettable but a price worth paying. For others, Sandy Hook is regrettable and a price not worth paying.
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Old 18.12.2012, 14:26
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Someone posted a list of pro- and anti- arguments for gun ownership earlier. Big items missed off the list are the love and testosterone factors. You can talk all you want about hunting, and the need to protect your family from drug-crazed sex offenders climbing through the window, but many people just seem to love guns, period. They seem to make them feel good about themselves. Weird, but there you are.

And it's this aspect that gets in the way of rational debate. We get bogged down in detail about this or that burglary incident proving that guns are needed, when really there is something more visceral and elemental going on in the gun-lover's underpants. Out with it.
That might fall under the anti argument of guns empowering cowards. in any case it may just be the most honest reason any pro arms can give. " its cool and I like it. " fair enough.
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  #510  
Old 18.12.2012, 14:33
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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That might fall under the anti argument of guns empowering cowards. in any case it may just be the most honest reason any pro arms can give. " its cool and I like it. " fair enough.
I would like them to say it. I sometimes think all the arguments about domestic protection and the right to bear arms etc are secondary to this one -- that there seems to be some almost horny thing going on there somewhere.

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  #511  
Old 18.12.2012, 14:36
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

I was giving them a chance. None of those given are reasons.

The original purpose of the gun was neither to be used as a sport nor to hunt an animal.

The "gun" as we know it came out of China around the 13th century. Since then it has been further developed to be more effective at what it is designed to by either being more powerful at it, more accurate at it or doing more of it more quickly.

The IT is killing people.

The closest comparison to another of mankind's tools is the crossbow/bow and arrow. Again, it was designed for killing - although in this case it is possible to argue that it was born out of one of the points made above (hunting) rather than killing of people.

But compare to a gun it is highly ineffectual. In fact arm a mentally disturbed young man with a crossbow and a quiver of bolts - and the body count would have been considerably lower.

The pro-gun lobby approaches the argument for gun ownership only from the position of allowing it and not from the position of not allowing it. Instead of looking at why guns should be banned - why not look at why they should be allowed?

Home defence is perhaps the weakest of all the arguments. "Criminals" have guns. They certainly do - but consider for a moment how they came upon them. They did not buy them legitimately, they bought them on the black market. A market fed by legitimately owned guns take from their owners - by one means or another. So the argument for home defence is born out of fear for an element of society who is able to inflict damage via the tools that society itself purchased.

If gun ownership is the great leveller and provides security, balance, and a hobby to the nation, then surely everyone should carry? Or would that simply create an arms race - for each person to carry more, or faster, or more powerful.

Neither side will ever be convinced by the other, but until the pro-gun lobby accepts that the "tools" for which they campaign so powerfully for ENABLE individuals to take the lives of innocent people, events as we have witnessed on Friday - and are witnessing on a more frequent basis - will continue to happen.

(On the flip side - I guess allowing your citizens to arm themselves and kill each other is one of controlling population size)
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Old 18.12.2012, 14:39
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

There are countless gun freaks that have some odd relationship with guns, absolutely. But, there are also quite a few people that see a gun as just another tool, albeit one that demands great responsibility. You might not know many of those people, but in rural America hunting is incredibly common compared to Europe, and it is something that is accessible to and practiced by anyone, regardless of social and financial status.
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Old 18.12.2012, 14:50
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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There are countless gun freaks that have some odd relationship with guns, absolutely. But, there are also quite a few people that see a gun as just another tool, albeit one that demands great responsibility. You might not know many of those people, but in rural America hunting is incredibly common compared to Europe, and it is something that is accessible to and practiced by anyone, regardless of social and financial status.
So a bolt-action would do the trick there. All of the guns used by Lanza were of this type*




*9mm Glock ( Wiki page - note history/design and current uses)
9mm Sig-Sauer ( Wiki page - note that the history of the company was to build muskets for the Swiss ministry of defence)
0.223 Bushmaster Assault rifle ( Wiki page - unless you are intent on taking down an entire herd, this is not for hunting)

None of which are bolt action hunting rifles - I was being facetious

Furthermore if you allow one group of individuals to do something then the rest of the population should be granted the same rights subject to the same restrictions on ownership (EG sanity, locked boxes, separate ammo/gun etc). If you wish to allow hunting, allow hunting - define the guns (models), set up a licencing structure, registration of guns and ammunition. Each year the owner is re-checked, guns inspected, ammo-counted etc

On death guns are not inherited - they are handed over to the state.

There are, as both sides accept, in the Lanza case other factors that accounted for the actions on Friday and they should also be addressed.

Last edited by dodgyken; 18.12.2012 at 15:03.
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  #514  
Old 18.12.2012, 15:03
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Stuff
Once again, you're changing the terms of the argument. You asked a question, got an answer you can't refute, and now you're going back and pretending the original question was something entirely different, again.

Your question was not "What were guns originally intended for?" or "Why does a city dweller need a fully automatic rifle?" but "What's a valid reason to own a gun?", and you got plenty of answers, you just didn't like them.

It might be hard to believe, but I dislike guns. I would be thrilled if America never created another gun, and if owning handguns and high capacity rifles became practically impossible. I'm immeasurably ashamed of the way the NRA behaves, of the attitudes of many gun owners in America, and the loss of life that results out of those attitudes.

However, all that being said, I'm a realist, and I also have some basic knowledge about America, guns, and hunting, things that are sorely lacking in this thread. There is NO WAY the 300 million guns currently in the hands of Americans are going away. Go look up Ruby Ridge, The Montana Freedmen, and Waco to see what happens when the US government tries to forcibly take guns away from a certain segment of the population, and ask yourself if the American populace and politicians have the resolve to deal with a few thousand Waco-like events to get maybe 20% of the guns out there. There is NO WAY you'll ever ban hunting in the country that made it possible for every man, woman, and child to easily and cheaply go and shoot dinner, regardless of social status. There are still countless people that hunt in order to feed their families.

So if I don't like guns, how come I keep arguing against people that also don't like guns? Because I expect honesty and knowledge from both sides of the issue, my own side included, and this thread is full of a bunch of people who have no idea what they're talking about and shockingly, don't care to learn even the slightest bit about what they're talking about before jumping to wholly unrealistic, impossible, and half-assed conclusions.

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  #515  
Old 18.12.2012, 15:04
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Someone posted a list of pro- and anti- arguments for gun ownership earlier. Big items missed off the list are the love and testosterone factors. You can talk all you want about hunting, and the need to protect your family from drug-crazed sex offenders climbing through the window, but many people just seem to love guns, period. They seem to make them feel good about themselves. Weird, but there you are.

And it's this aspect that gets in the way of rational debate. We get bogged down in detail about this or that burglary incident proving that guns are needed, when really there is something more visceral and elemental going on in the gun-lover's underpants. Out with it.
Doesn't anything that one takes on as an interest or avocation make them feel good about themselves?

I've been following this thread, but can't figure out if the point is all guns are bad, just military style assault rifles and high capacity handguns, or what? Total ban? Strict regulations?

It seems that there is very little knowledge about guns and how they work here. If the young man in the recent case had been armed with a shotgun, even a simple double barreled shotgun (such as is accessible without too much trouble in the U.K.), he would have very easily killed just as many people- perhaps more. In a close range situation like a school classroom one would only need to be approximately accurate in order to kill, unlike with a rifle like he used. A double barreled shotgun can be reloaded very, very quickly with bit of practice.

So it's ban them all then? And if you like guns you are either compensating for something or a closet sicko?

There's a Youtube clip of Swiss kids, age 13 or so, learning to shoot. Look it up yourselves if you want "swiss kids shooting" will work. I will definitely look into getting Mini Mud into a course like that, if she wants to, in a few years. Her mom would like that too, as she learned as a child as well. Just perpetuating the sickness, somebody has to do it.
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Old 18.12.2012, 15:11
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Doesn't anything that one takes on as an interest or avocation make them feel good about themselves?

I've been following this thread, but can't figure out if the point is all guns are bad, just military style assault rifles and high capacity handguns, or what? Total ban? Strict regulations?

It seems that there is very little knowledge about guns and how they work here. If the young man in the recent case had been armed with a shotgun, even a simple double barreled shotgun (such as is accessible without too much trouble in the U.K.), he would have very easily killed just as many people- perhaps more. In a close range situation like a school classroom one would only need to be approximately accurate in order to kill, unlike with a rifle like he used. A double barreled shotgun can be reloaded very, very quickly with bit of practice.

So it's ban them all then? And if you like guns you are either compensating for something or a closet sicko?
From my experience of knowing gun and weapon loving people, sadly this would appear to be the case.

I was actually in a gun club for a a couple of months and I can safely say that I wouldn't want any of it's members looking after my children.

(I was in the club for the skills part of an Award but took up another skill instead as I didn't fancy spending so long with the weirdos).

There was a weapons-loving person I worked with and he gave the ladies at work the shivers. They were convinced he would commit some atrocity, some day.

I should add that all the people I know in the Army and the Police (including Royal Marines and Army marksmen) have absolutely no interest in guns out of work.
For them, guns are a tool like radios and helicopters.
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Old 18.12.2012, 15:12
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Once again, you're changing the terms of the argument. You asked a question, got an answer you can't refute, and now you're going back and pretending the original question was something entirely different, again.
The terms remain the same. But each time the point it is argued it is argued from the point of the current legislation.

Take a clean sheet of paper - a new constitution. Would you go for legalised gun ownership or a blanket ban?

Applying a change in legislation in the US would be challenging - and COULD result in a few more WACOs - but since 2007 there have been 6 attacks similar to what occurred on Friday. How many are needed for a change to be forced?
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Old 18.12.2012, 15:15
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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From my experience of knowing gun and weapon loving people, sadly this would appear to be the case.

I was actually in a gun club for a a couple of months and I can safely say that I wouldn't want any of it's members looking after my children.

(I was in the club for the skills part of an Award but took up another skill instead as I didn't fancy spending so long with the weirdos).

There was a weapons-loving person I worked with and he gave the ladies at work the shivers. They were convinced he would commit some atrocity, some day.
That's strange. I've known some people I wouldn't hesitate to label as "gun nuts", and whom I didn't hesitate either to stay away from. Almost all the gun owners I have known have just been regular folks though. Perhaps it's a result of coming from the U.S. South? Everyone knows that we are all born as gun nuts. So we don't notice it, like getting used to the smell in a paper factory. Funny how few mass-type shootings occur in the South.
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Old 18.12.2012, 15:18
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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That's strange. I've known some people I wouldn't hesitate to label as "gun nuts", and whom I didn't hesitate either to stay away from. Almost all the gun owners I have known have just been regular folks though. Perhaps it's a result of coming from the U.S. South? Everyone knows that we are all born as gun nuts. So we don't notice it, like getting used to the smell in a paper factory. Funny how few mass-type shootings occur in the South.
Perhaps its because the gun nuts in the U.S. vanish into the haze of gun owners. The nuts are still there though.


The ones in the U.K. are more noticeable as there's not so much of a gun culture and probably less so now that regulations are tighter.
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Old 18.12.2012, 15:41
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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No you did not!

You wrote
Trust in what? That you are responsible to use the weapon only in legitimate cases? That anyone in your household is responsible enough so as not to misuse the gun? Trust that you are well trained to be able to use your gun without endangering innocent people around?

Trust in that by owning a gun (for the price of wide availability of guns -which means you are much more likely to be attacked with one) you are more secure than if you hadn't but your average Joe attacker wouldn't.

Trust that you are better at handling guns than the criminal attacking you?
All of the above, yes. Nice one for the most part.
You are quite self confident aren't you?
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