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  #521  
Old 18.12.2012, 15:44
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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I believe you can measure trust.
Of course you can with a trustometer and it is measured in
militrust, trusts, kilotrust, megatrust, etc
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  #522  
Old 18.12.2012, 15:48
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Perhaps its because the gun nuts in the U.S. vanish into the haze of gun owners. The nuts are still there though.


The ones in the U.K. are more noticeable as there's not so much of a gun culture and probably less so now that regulations are tighter.
There may be a difference between gun nuts and the broad majority of reasonable, restrained and responsible gun owners. I would like to think that is the case.

But judging by some of the arguments I've seen on this thread, and indeed in other places I've been involved in discussions on the matter, the crazy type of gun folks don't seem to be in the clear minority. Furthermore the self-proclaimed reasonable and responsible pro-gun folks are turning a blind eye to the arguments of the crazy ones while putting a lot of energy into dismantling the arguments of the anti-gun folks.

If the pro-gun folks cannot police their own ranks or at least set themselves clearly apart from the crazies, why should anybody else trust them or give them the benefit of the doubt?
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  #523  
Old 18.12.2012, 15:54
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Doesn't anything that one takes on as an interest or avocation make them feel good about themselves?

I've been following this thread, but can't figure out if the point is all guns are bad, just military style assault rifles and high capacity handguns, or what? Total ban? Strict regulations?
Different contributors will have different views. Personally, I've grown up in a country that has no gun culture as such. I think the only time I've ever seen a gun in the UK is in a police holster at LHR. The US has to make its own laws, but it seems clear that the more guns there are in circulation, the more often they are ab/used, so a long term strategy for eliminating guns kept in the home seems like a rational step. I said 'long term' because it can't be fixed quickly. I'd say a 10-30 year timeline would be required. Sports users would have to keep guns locked at their clubs. Hunters? Trickier, but perhaps people have to eventually accept that their traditional pleasures need to gradually change in line with the times. They might have to arrange their sessions well in advance, and book weapons in and out of a police station or some other secure facility. Inconvenient, for sure, but it would reduce the mass shootings and casual daily murders.

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It seems that there is very little knowledge about guns and how they work here. If the young man in the recent case had been armed with a shotgun, even a simple double barreled shotgun (such as is accessible without too much trouble in the U.K.), he would have very easily killed just as many people- perhaps more. In a close range situation like a school classroom one would only need to be approximately accurate in order to kill, unlike with a rifle like he used. A double barreled shotgun can be reloaded very, very quickly with bit of practice.
You're right, I know nothing about these things but the technical detail is less important than the bigger soul-searching questions for US inhabitants. Point taken about a db-shotgun but you have to see that strutting round a school with semi-automatic weaponry and high-powered pistols seems to add to the 'glamour' for these fantasists. Not sure that a shotgun would have quite the same thrall over most of these people.

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So it's ban them all then? And if you like guns you are either compensating for something or a closet sicko?
Mmm, yep, that's about the measure of it. Or at least start working towards a shift in mindset. It will take a long time, so best get cracking.
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  #524  
Old 18.12.2012, 16:13
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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......I'm a realist, and I also have some basic knowledge about America, guns, and hunting, things that are sorely lacking in this thread. There is NO WAY the 300 million guns currently in the hands of Americans are going away. Go look up Ruby Ridge, The Montana Freedmen, and Waco to see what happens when the US government tries to forcibly take guns away from a certain segment of the population, and ask yourself if the American populace and politicians have the resolve to deal with a few thousand Waco-like events to get maybe 20% of the guns out there. There is NO WAY you'll ever ban hunting in the country that made it possible for every man, woman, and child to easily and cheaply go and shoot dinner, regardless of social status. There are still countless people that hunt in order to feed their families.

So if I don't like guns, how come I keep arguing against people that also don't like guns? Because I expect honesty and knowledge from both sides of the issue, my own side included, and this thread is full of a bunch of people who have no idea what they're talking about and shockingly, don't care to learn even the slightest bit about what they're talking about before jumping to wholly unrealistic, impossible, and half-assed conclusions.
Great passion. But defeatist.

Yes, it's a hard problem. Yes, it will take time. But these are not reasons to shrug your shoulders and accept the way things are going.

The key thing is time. You are totally right if you are saying things can't be changed overnight, or even within a year. This is a long term project. It might take an entire generation to really sink in, just as it's taken the best part of 50 years to change our attitudes to smoking, for instance.

Your reference to hunting is a great point -- many US people see it as a birthright and part of their heritage. So at least move towards a system where you are allowed to hunt if you are approved, and if your weapons are locked away in a secure place. You arrange your hunting in advance. Of course, people will complain like hell but you introduce it gradually. Ultimately, if that's the law, then that's the law. If the alternative is a total ban, then maybe the hunters will eventually end up seeing reason and accepting a change in their lifestyle for the benefit of the greater good.

So no easy or quick answers, but answers must be found.
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  #525  
Old 18.12.2012, 16:16
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Doesn't anything that one takes on as an interest or avocation make them feel good about themselves?

I've been following this thread, but can't figure out if the point is all guns are bad, just military style assault rifles and high capacity handguns, or what? Total ban? Strict regulations?

It seems that there is very little knowledge about guns and how they work here. If the young man in the recent case had been armed with a shotgun, even a simple double barreled shotgun (such as is accessible without too much trouble in the U.K.), he would have very easily killed just as many people- perhaps more. In a close range situation like a school classroom one would only need to be approximately accurate in order to kill, unlike with a rifle like he used. A double barreled shotgun can be reloaded very, very quickly with bit of practice.

So it's ban them all then? And if you like guns you are either compensating for something or a closet sicko?

There's a Youtube clip of Swiss kids, age 13 or so, learning to shoot. Look it up yourselves if you want "swiss kids shooting" will work. I will definitely look into getting Mini Mud into a course like that, if she wants to, in a few years. Her mom would like that too, as she learned as a child as well. Just perpetuating the sickness, somebody has to do it.
The problem is there are too many guns, too many people who do not need guns have guns.

There's nothing wrong with guns, in the right environment and in the hands of the right people i.e. in a secure range.
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  #526  
Old 18.12.2012, 16:19
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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Guns used in the Connecticut shooting.
Sorry, but which of these guns are used in hunting?
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  #527  
Old 18.12.2012, 16:38
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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Sorry, but which of these guns are used in hunting?
The base of the bushmaster is great for hunting flies
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  #528  
Old 18.12.2012, 16:42
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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Sorry, but which of these guns are used in hunting?
None of these serve any legitimate hunting purpose. Did someone in this thread suggest that they do?
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  #529  
Old 18.12.2012, 16:44
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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Nah, you're totally right. Although i would argue a good bit of governing is done by fear. Everywhere. It's just easy right now to look at the US. Moore isn't necessarily a science, but he has a good handle on human behavior and motivation. The way to keep people in line is by fear...if you don't protect yourself they're going to take away your stuff. I think the NRA uses this as a major marketing strategy. And i'm sure both sides use fear.
Yep. It's precisely why they scare monger so much over "terrorism", which for the most part is a fanatic group angry at the way the west conducts itself in trying to own the world and take over their resources (see US attempts at global domination, military bases, and oil thefts with the UK as its closest allies ).

The terrorists are coming, they are on our streets, in our schools, we must protect you, to do this we must have cameras in your bedroom, and make you wear a chip to track your movements, to PROTECT YOU FROM THE TERRORISTS, that WE created and provide weapons for

This goes on to the extent that the people demand the laws, protections, rights, that they think is going to protect them but ultimately really surrenders their rights and into the palms of the controlling powers.

I'll grab my coat and tin foil hat shall i?
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  #530  
Old 18.12.2012, 16:46
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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I'll grab my coat and tin foil hat shall i?
We know that Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction?

How do you know?

We have intelligence

What intelligence?

We know he has amassed the components

How do you know?

We have the intelligence

But how do you know?

We sold him the components and have the receipts!!!!

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  #531  
Old 18.12.2012, 18:24
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/12/...freedom-group/

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/12/...sh-for-reform/

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About a year ago, the National Rifle Association issued this statement about Freedom and Cerberus: “The owners and investors involved are strong supporters of the Second Amendment and are avid hunters and shooters.”
Stephen A. Feinberg is founder of Cerberus Capital and owner of Freedom Group, Bushmaster AR-15's (among many others) manufacturer. Perversity of these people is immense. From very name of company, Freedom, to their hypocritical political view.

Tragic part is this:
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"The California State Teachers’ Retirement System, which has a stake in Freedom through a $751.4 million investment in Cerberus’s funds, said Monday it was reviewing its investment. “At this point our investment branch is examining the Cerberus investment to determine how best to move forward given the tragic events of last Friday in Newtown, Conn.,” the company said in a statement to Reuters."
CalPERS pension fund, the world biggest, from those who are teaching your kids, presumably the pedagogues and the educators, are investing in weapon industry. In same time they teach them about divine Second amendment!? Bill Gross is also enjoy "hunting". I am glad I do not have kids.

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"Private equity firms have a long history of investing in “sin” companies, including guns, alcohol, gambling and tobacco, in part because the companies often are inherently discounted. Kohlberg Kravis Roberts acquired RJR Nabisco in 1988; the R. J. Reynolds Tobacco Company was later spun off."
All this couldn't be possible without support of Washington, that Second amendment is just argument for the fools. The elite composed of politicians , so-called investors, and pension fund managers preaching Second amendment and sowing the death to dead-brained population scared of Sharia law, "yellow danger", terrorism and what not. This is "business as usual" or "let's make money"; or just forces of "market" as it is their line of reasoning. According to an article this was "wildly successful business" at rate of 20% annually! Obviously, an "investors" have little to do with human being - there are Cerberus. The time will heal all wounds, so they think. Until next massacre. They do not even dare to call it with right name - massacre.

And now Cerberus is going to "to sell it", it is like problem solved; I wonder to whom? Some mysterious off-shore company owned by that evil Cerberus.

Here is their statement, apparently it has nothing to do with them.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-relea...183889361.html
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  #532  
Old 18.12.2012, 20:38
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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There have been no school shootings in the UK since Dunblane.
And there were none before.
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  #533  
Old 18.12.2012, 21:27
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

The shooting and the ensuing political and media firestorm have cast a sort of hopeless, helpless feeling over the past few days. I am not given to paranoia, but one does get this sense that everything is going to hell in a handbasket sometimes. Reading this quote from legendary American children's entertainer, Mr. Rogers, certainly provided a bit of much needed medicine:

“When I was a boy and I would see scary things in the news, my mother would say to me, ‘Look for the helpers. You will always find people who are helping.’ To this day, especially in times of ‘disaster,’ I remember my mother’s words, and I am always comforted by realizing that there are still so many helpers - so many caring people in this world.”

For every one of the murderous lunatics out there, are countless scores of people who just desperately want to live peaceably and to help. As long as this is true, the world doesn't seem such a bad place.
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  #534  
Old 18.12.2012, 21:39
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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The base of the bushmaster is great for hunting flies
Just not good on walls
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  #535  
Old 18.12.2012, 22:07
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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I totally agree with the safe and secure storage of fire arms. However registry and licensing however was attempted in Canada and was a total failure. I'm not claiming it can't be helpful, but it was a lot more complicated, tedious and unproportionally expensive for any potential safety, than any supporters could imagine.
I hardly can say anything about Canada, but in Switzerland it generally works, and this in spite of the whole thing not being ideally or superbly solved. True enough, shh... did happen and unfortanetly may happen again, but it at least is seriousl attempted.

The questions about Canada therefore are
> why was it a failure ?
> why was it too complicated ?
> why was it tedious ?
> what was so expensive about it ?
-
I mean, it is obvious that all control mechanisms may not work too well in case of remote places in the mountains. But those mountaineers are not in the habit, neither in the Alps nor in the Rockies, to get down to the "lowlands" to kill a dozen people at the weekend.

No Sir, I do not advocate a USSR-like police state, but favour a realistic approach. Again, you cannot achieve perfect safety by any administrational methods, but you can improve the general situation.

Also in regard to the army you have to realize that an average non-infantry unit (Batterie in Artillery or FLAK, Kompanie in other parts) at the end of a 3 weeks thing has between 50 and 300 shots "missing". The only thing to do is to "dress up" (frisieren) the ammunition-accounting by distributing the missing shots among the soldiers in a way that it is not visible, so that you in the end have an "even balance"

In regard to the "Obligatorische" it is similar. You purchase, beside the ammunition you need also a number of "Probe-Munition" (check-up/exercise ammunition). Nobody checks whether you really used the Probe-Munition, or not.

Back to the USA. To introduce a strict and authoritarian surveillance system would be rubbish alltogether, not least in regard of the lots of ammunition with people around the country. This is why Mr Obama spoke about "meaningful".
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  #536  
Old 18.12.2012, 22:27
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Doesn't anything that one takes on as an interest or avocation make them feel good about themselves?

I've been following this thread, but can't figure out if the point is all guns are bad, just military style assault rifles and high capacity handguns, or what? Total ban? Strict regulations?

It seems that there is very little knowledge about guns and how they work here. If the young man in the recent case had been armed with a shotgun, even a simple double barreled shotgun (such as is accessible without too much trouble in the U.K.), he would have very easily killed just as many people- perhaps more. In a close range situation like a school classroom one would only need to be approximately accurate in order to kill, unlike with a rifle like he used. A double barreled shotgun can be reloaded very, very quickly with bit of practice.

So it's ban them all then? And if you like guns you are either compensating for something or a closet sicko?

There's a Youtube clip of Swiss kids, age 13 or so, learning to shoot. Look it up yourselves if you want "swiss kids shooting" will work. I will definitely look into getting Mini Mud into a course like that, if she wants to, in a few years. Her mom would like that too, as she learned as a child as well. Just perpetuating the sickness, somebody has to do it.
Alright, we have Knabenschiessen in Zürich
http://www.knabenschiessen.ch/htdocs...n=update&id=22
and as you can see, kids up from 13 years old are taught how to shoot. But also are taught how to unload, how to keep weapons in a secure place, etc. The Knabenschiessen already was a dated tradition in the 1960ies, and there has never been any problem resulting from it.

In Military Service, you have to "UNload" after any shots fired repeatedly and are thoroughly instructed of how to keep the rifle away of sight, away of access to children, and away of too obvious spots for burglars.

Back to the Connecticut massacre. The mother of the shooter thoroughly adored her younger son, and would not in her wildest dream have imagined her beloved son to go onto a killing spree. The matter is not easy
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  #537  
Old 18.12.2012, 22:46
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Back to the Connecticut massacre. The mother of the shooter thoroughly adored her younger son, and would not in her wildest dream have imagined her beloved son to go onto a killing spree. The matter is not easy
True, but I don't know what that woman was thinking by exposing her emotionally-unstable son to guns in the first place. And no matter how responsible someone may try to be with their guns, there is still no way to ensure that they won't end up in the wrong hands, etc.

I remember reading an article just a few days before the Conn. tragedy in which a guy (in the U.S.) went to a gun store, trying to sell one of his guns. The store wasn't interested. So as the guy was leaving and putting his son in the car, the gun accidentally went off and he killed his son.

Gun ownership comes with a huge amount of responsibility that I think even the most cautious and careful people can't always master.

If that shooter in Connecticut hadn't been taught how to load and fire a gun (or know where to get one), there would be 20 more little innocent lives in the world right now.
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  #538  
Old 18.12.2012, 23:10
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

Can anybody talk to the subject of gun laws in Australia? I just heard that a few years ago ,after a massacre , there were much stricter laws instituted there, which has resulted in a significant reduction in gun violence and or accidents.
Is this right or was I listening to a biased source?
An Australian's opinion would be appreciated.
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  #539  
Old 19.12.2012, 00:30
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

Excuse me for jumping in here well into the thread. Though sneaking a peek now and then, honestly I have not followed this thread from start to end.

I came across this from Tim Schmidt, CEO and President of USCCA. Simple text that has a message:

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What happened last week at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut was the kind of nightmare that would make anyone cringe. To say that I was saddened by what happened to those innocent children would be a gross understatement. No one should ever have to suffer this kind of devastation, and my thoughts and prayers are with everyone affected by this unspeakable tragedy.

This is not the first mass murder that has shaken our nation, and although I wish it weren’t so, this will not be the last time a twisted person attempts to take innocent lives like this.

Every time a shooting happens in our nation, a handful of “armchair experts” rise to propose that guns are the reason for the violence. If it weren’t for guns, our schools would be safer. If it weren’t for guns, you could go to the movies without fear. If it weren’t for guns, you could go Christmas shopping without looking over your shoulder...

The fact of the matter is that more laws and more control don’t equal more safety and security. If you need proof, just look at Chicago.

Chicago is the poster child for gun control, yet since 2001, 2,000 troops have died in Afghanistan while 5,000 people have been murdered in Chicago. Chicago’s homicide rate is four times greater than New York, and twice that of Los Angeles. Good intentions have yielded bad results in Chicago, and it’s time to face the facts: Criminals and psychotic individuals don’t obey “no guns” signs or gun control laws.

It might be a cliche amongst gun owners, but arguing that guns cause murders is very much like arguing that spoons make people fat, or cars make drunk driving possible.

So if taking guns out of the hands of responsibly armed citizens isn't the answer, then what is? After 9/11, massive steps were taken to harden-up cockpit doors, and we instituted the air marshal program to train and arm pilots. If anyone attempted to break through the cockpit door, they would be met by a hail of gunfire. After Columbine, why wasn't a similar program put in place to harden-up schools and train and arm teachers and administrators in tactical defense? The chilling fact remains that the Newtown murderer had no trouble breaking through the school's glass doors...

I have no doubt that there are many people who would be outraged by the idea of our schools having responsibly armed personnel protecting our kids, but my response to them would be the same as Concealed Carry Report writer John Caile’s response:

“…these same people who barely raise an eyebrow at the idea of armored car guards carrying guns to protect bags of cash, suddenly go apoplectic over the prospect of teachers carrying guns to protect young children. If that’s not misplaced priorities, I don’t know what is.”

Violent criminals and psychopaths aren’t going away, and no law will prevent them from committing murder in the future. Now is not the time to wish the problem away. Now is the time to take this issue seriously enough to actually protect our children so that this never happens again.

Take care and stay safe,

Tim Schmidt
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Old 19.12.2012, 00:45
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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- I was being facetious.
No surprise there then

Last edited by MusicChick; 19.12.2012 at 14:02. Reason: fixed quote
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brown, darren wilson, ferguson, gun control, guns, kids, police, shooting range, usa




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