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  #561  
Old 19.12.2012, 16:04
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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MC, this is a sad day for me as it is the first time I disagree with you.

There is nothing wrong with shooting as a hobby, like my neighbour and his son. Or as a hunter like my cousin. But why allow people to have automatic or semi-auto weapons at home? My neighbour and cousin have several guns, and all locked safely in a special cupboard- and they have the only key always on themselves. Why is that too difficult?
It's good to disagree, how else can things improve..I actually disagreed with those who made it sound as ban on all guns will sort it all. It won't. They were also pointing fingers on those who like to shoot as a hobby or sport or who saw some point in society actually using weapons, why?

I think it is not at the end a matter on how sophisticated the weapons are, since a mere knife, a home made explosives or poison can do a hell of a lot of damage, too.

I think there should be licenses, as I wrote, restrictions, etc. so we actually do not disagree, Odile. I just cannot see that as something that would push for a healthier attitude, banning access will not teach people how to work them in a safer way, nor how to be responsible.

I think the problem itself is in detaching an individual from belonging to a community and community not being responsible for an individual.
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  #562  
Old 19.12.2012, 16:05
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

http://gawker.com/5968818/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother

Someone (from texas) just posted this link in facebook.
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  #563  
Old 19.12.2012, 16:13
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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http://gawker.com/5968818/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother

Someone (from texas) just posted this link in facebook.

I think it's been posted already. I think it's pretty loathsome for a mother to air this kid's dirty laundry in public, and someone's gone a bit deeper into her blog to find some pretty disturbing stuff that she'd written in the past, she seems to be quite unsympathetic and it doesn't seem far-fetched to suggest that she and her ex-husband's drama and antics may have had a pretty devastating effect on this kid.

But hey now that she's told the world she thinks that her 13 year old kid is a budding mass murderer I'm sure everything will turn out fine. Plus she got a ton of hits!
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  #564  
Old 19.12.2012, 16:19
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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I think it's been posted already. I think it's pretty loathsome for a mother to air this kid's dirty laundry in public, and someone's gone a bit deeper into her blog to find some pretty disturbing stuff that she'd written in the past, she seems to be quite unsympathetic and it doesn't seem far-fetched to suggest that she and her ex-husband's drama and antics may have had a pretty devastating effect on this kid.

But hey now that she's told the world she thinks that her 13 year old kid is a budding mass murderer I'm sure everything will turn out fine. Plus she got a ton of hits!
+1,000.

anybody who reads that woman's other blog entries will have no trouble forming their own independent judgment about whether or not her 13 year old son is "mentally ill" or simply the victim of incredibly poor behavioral training.
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  #565  
Old 19.12.2012, 16:20
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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i don't know who you hang with, but thankfully most of mine think this is the most ridiculous, harmful and just plain stupid idea they have ever heard.

not all americans are gun happy idiots and i hate the fact that the view people have is that most are. yes there are some lumps in the gravy but to say this is a common thought among americans is wrong.
I'd say at least a quarter of my American FB friends think this way. And it's exactly these people who are quite loud with their opinions.
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  #566  
Old 19.12.2012, 17:04
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

All man has ever wanted is power.

Throughout history, we have people in power.

Today, we have people in power.

People with power want more power.

When they invented the gun, everyone could have their own bit of power.

When someone feels lost, ignored, out of touch, different, they can take that bit of power and make a huge ripple in the world, as if to say, "you forgot about poor me, weirdo me, wont forget me now will you".

And the man goes out of the world with a last thrill of power.
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  #567  
Old 19.12.2012, 18:38
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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All man has ever wanted is power.

Throughout history, we have people in power.

Today, we have people in power.

People with power want more power.

When they invented the gun, everyone could have their own bit of power.

When someone feels lost, ignored, out of touch, different, they can take that bit of power and make a huge ripple in the world, as if to say, "you forgot about poor me, weirdo me, wont forget me now will you".

And the man goes out of the world with a last thrill of power.
You can get that same feeling by trolling on the EF. Start a thread on Islam or whores for example, or ask why the Swiss are all racist and onions are so expensive.

Maybe we should be nicer to trolls. It's better than letting them shoot.
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  #568  
Old 19.12.2012, 18:57
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

And another one:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/12/1...-to-be-a-homo/


Sick.
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  #569  
Old 19.12.2012, 19:01
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

I agree with this bit:

"
authorities should take the body of the suspected shooter, 20-year-old Adam Lanza, “and string him up in public and set his body on fire and leave it out there to let the birds pick his bones.”


Then they should do the same to the pastor for using this incident to promote his sickening propaganda about religious BS
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  #570  
Old 19.12.2012, 20:31
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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I agree with this bit:

"
authorities should take the body of the suspected shooter, 20-year-old Adam Lanza, “and string him up in public and set his body on fire and leave it out there to let the birds pick his bones.”


Then they should do the same to the pastor for using this incident to promote his sickening propaganda about religious BS
No, as much as I am horrified of what this murderer did, I don't see how this would change anything. It wouldn't bring the kids back and would conduct only more violence in the name of revenge. I have been thinking of how his father, brother and close family members and friends must feel about what he did. These people are grieving too, in the same way, same level of loss than the families who lost a child. But they also have to live with incomprehension and shame. I can't even think how it must be to be a father of a murderer of such a descructive act.

Lets not forget who he was before to be a mass killer, he was a son, a brother, a friend, a student, a child, etc.

I don't believe people get any positive outcome to see someone being killed by a justice court or having his body savagely burn in a public place.
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  #571  
Old 19.12.2012, 20:34
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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I agree with this bit:

"
authorities should take the body of the suspected shooter, 20-year-old Adam Lanza, “and string him up in public and set his body on fire and leave it out there to let the birds pick his bones.”


Then they should do the same to the pastor for using this incident to promote his sickening propaganda about religious BS
How about making a law to say it's perfectly okay to shoot people, as long you only shoot the unreasonable ones - such as those who like to shoot people.

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  #572  
Old 20.12.2012, 01:35
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

From The Guardian

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NRA: 10 ways it has weakened gun-control laws in the US

How the organisation behind Florida's stand-your-ground law has been exploiting loopholes – and creating more – for years


The NRA, working alongside like-minded conservative groups such as Alec, the American Legislative Exchange Council, has developed sophisticated lobbying networks designed to push back gun controls both at the federal and state level.

Here are key areas where the gun lobby has either pushed laws that weaken controls or blocked laws intended to tighten loopholes:

1. Concealed carry reciprocity

The NRA is backing two bills currently being considered by the US Senate that would extend the right to carry concealed weapons right across the US. The Begich-Manchin and Thune-Vitter bills would override the laws of almost every state by forcing them to allow people with out-of-state concealed carry permits to carry a hidden loaded gun, even in cases where the individual would not have qualified for a permit in that particular state. The Thune bill goes further – it would allow people from states that don't even require permits to carry hidden guns throughout the country.

2. Private gun sales loophole

Under existing federal law, unlicensed gun sellers are allowed to sell weapons without a background check of the buyer at gun shows and other private sales. Paradoxically, only licensed dealers are required to conduct such background checks, which gun control advocates see as crucial in cutting off the supply of weapons to criminals and mentally unstable individuals. The NRA strongly opposes legislation that would close this glaring loophole by requiring background checks for all gun sales.

3. Terror watch list

The NRA has strongly opposed legislation to prohibit the sale of guns to people on the federal government's terrorist watch list. Under current law, a suspected terrorist can be put on the no-fly list and be kept off a plane, but can't be prevented from buying a gun.

4. Stand-your-ground laws

The NRA successfully lobbied for Florida's stand-your-ground law in 2005, the same shoot-first provision that was invoked by Trayvon Martin's killer, George Zimmerman. Working with Alec, the NRA has encouraged the passage of similar legislation in 24 other states, and now it is actively pursuing bills that would codify similar legislation in at least seven states: Colorado, Massachusetts, Minnesota (where the bill was vetoed by governor), Nebraska, New Jersey, New York and Washington.

5. Guns on campuses

This year, at least 14 states have introduced 35 bills, with NRA encouragement, that would allow students and faculty to carry concealed weapons on the campuses of state colleges and universities, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures. Alec, too, has put forward a model bill for guns on campuses. Remarkably, the argument is often made that having hidden guns on campus would help prevent another Virginia Tech, America's deadliest shooting by a single gunman, in which 33 people were killed in April 2007.

6. Guns in schools

NRA-backed gun proponents have tried in several states to pass legislation eliminating "gun-free zones" and allowing weapons in elementary schools and even day-care centres. In February, the Georgia state assembly considered - though did not pass - HR 981, which would have made it legal to carry guns on college campuses, elementary and secondary schools, state mental hospitals and bars.

7. Guns in the workplace

For several years the NRA has pushed legislation prohibiting businesses and employers from banning guns in locked cars in parking lots. It has been successful in several states, including Florida and Utah, and is currently pushing for passage in Tennessee. Indiana and North Dakota have enacted laws allowing employees to sue if they are asked about gun possession at work.

8. Guns in bars and restaurants

The NRA has also been lobbying for several years to expand the right to carry hidden loaded guns into bars and restaurants.

9. Tracing guns used in shootings

In 2004, a Republican congressman from Kansas, Todd Tiahrt, a long-time ally of the NRA, added an amendment to bill regarding the bureau of alcohol, tobacco, firearms and explosives (ATF). Until that point, data had been kept on the history of guns used in murders and shootings, which allowed police and policymakers to trace them back to corrupt dealerships and other holes in the system. The rule change, known as the Tiahrt amendment, made this data much harder to acquire. It also forced the justice department to destroy within 24 hours the records of any gun buyer whose background check was approved. The overall impact of the amendments was to make it much harder for police to clamp down on illegally distributed guns.

10. Revoking licences from corrupt dealers

The NRA has made several attempts to usher through Congress an "ATF reform bill" that would make it much harder – some say virtually impossible – to revoke the gun-selling licenses of crooked dealers. If the bill passed – and the NRA is expected to try again soon – the ATF would have to prove the dealer's state of mind, in terms of his or her premeditated intention to break the law.
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  #573  
Old 20.12.2012, 02:04
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Can you provide a reasoned argument for why an "above average and good natured Joe" should own a gun?
same as anything. what is an argument that:

- cars can drive more than 120kmp/h
- people should be allowed to race cars on a track when people can be killed
- unhealthy food can be sold
- allow alcohol to be sold
- learn any form of martial art of fighting

i'm pretty sure eliminating alcohol would reduce a far greater number of deaths than banning ordinary people form owning guns.

so i guess my answer would be:

- because people enjoy it and don't harm anyone from doing their hobby
- that some people can abuse guns, alcohol, cars, knives doesn't mean we outright ban them, but punish those who abuse
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  #574  
Old 20.12.2012, 10:43
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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i'm pretty sure eliminating alcohol would reduce a far greater number of deaths than banning ordinary people form owning guns.
Again?

Ever heard of prohibition, or how many died in the resulting gang warfare?
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  #575  
Old 20.12.2012, 10:48
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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same as anything. what is an argument that:

- cars can drive more than 120kmp/h
- people should be allowed to race cars on a track when people can be killed
- unhealthy food can be sold
- allow alcohol to be sold
- learn any form of martial art of fighting

i'm pretty sure eliminating alcohol would reduce a far greater number of deaths than banning ordinary people form owning guns.

so i guess my answer would be:

- because people enjoy it and don't harm anyone from doing their hobby
- that some people can abuse guns, alcohol, cars, knives doesn't mean we outright ban them, but punish those who abuse
What's the benefit of punishment?

How does anyone gain from that?
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  #576  
Old 20.12.2012, 10:50
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

just wondering if anyone is seeing these things about Sand Hook


https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=oMINqFGNr-w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=By4StyJljZw
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  #577  
Old 20.12.2012, 11:34
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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same as anything. what is an argument that:

- cars can drive more than 120kmp/h
- people should be allowed to race cars on a track when people can be killed
- unhealthy food can be sold
- allow alcohol to be sold
- learn any form of martial art of fighting
Of the above - which ones have a PRIMARY purpose of killing?

A car has a primary purpose of transporting a person(s)/goods.
Your racing line makes no sense
A single piece of food will not kill. It has a primary aim to nourish (and yes I am being generous). But a person cannot buy food and then use it to kill a lot of people from distance. (Except maybe kinder eggs)
Alcohol does not have the primary purpose of killing.

Your food and drink argument is very weak as you mistaking where the blame lies. If you wish to correlate you would need to do so at the production and not consumption level.
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Old 20.12.2012, 12:21
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Your food and drink argument is very weak as you mistaking where the blame lies. If you wish to correlate you would need to do so at the production and not consumption level.
Right. So it is the people making guns who are to blame and not the people pulling the trigger? I think you are very wrong.

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Of the above - which ones have a PRIMARY purpose of killing?
Probably alcohol. It is toxic and purchased to be consumed leading to a deleterious effect on the health of the user and impaired functions which lead to a great number of deaths.

Next up, unhealthy food for the same reason.

Remainder do not have primary purpose of killing, but in order of danger:

Next up, racing cars - utility of having fun, directly related to speed and the dangers that come with it.

Next would be martial arts. Primarily for recreation and self-defence, but chance of injury when training.

Next cars. Strong utility, but also source of many deaths.

Lastly civilian guns. Again, used for recreation and some deaths from accidents and tragedies, but less than all the ones above.
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Old 20.12.2012, 12:22
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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What's the benefit of punishment?

How does anyone gain from that?
you tell me. why do we have a legal system which punishes? maybe you think that we should get rid of fines and prison?
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Old 20.12.2012, 12:35
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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that some people can abuse guns doesn't mean we outright ban them, but punish those who abuse
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What's the benefit of punishment?

How does anyone gain from that?
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you tell me. why do we have a legal system which punishes? maybe you think that we should get rid of fines and prison?
It wasn't me that suggested punishing people who misuse guns instead of banning guns - it was you, and I wondered why you wrote it and what was your reasoning?

But, it the high-profile cases, it's pointless as a deterrent as most of the gun crazies shoot themselves or get shot and it's hardly a punishment if they're dead, is it.

As for increasing the severity of the punishment, many U.S. states have capital punishment (which is the ultimate punishment) but the shootings continue so that's a waste of time too.
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