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  #601  
Old 20.12.2012, 13:54
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Right. So it is the people making guns who are to blame and not the people pulling the trigger? I think you are very wrong.



Probably alcohol. It is toxic and purchased to be consumed leading to a deleterious effect on the health of the user and impaired functions which lead to a great number of deaths.

Next up, unhealthy food for the same reason.

Remainder do not have primary purpose of killing, but in order of danger:

Next up, racing cars - utility of having fun, directly related to speed and the dangers that come with it.

Next would be martial arts. Primarily for recreation and self-defence, but chance of injury when training.

Next cars. Strong utility, but also source of many deaths.

Lastly civilian guns. Again, used for recreation and some deaths from accidents and tragedies, but less than all the ones above.

If you don't want to die because of alcohol, unhealthy food, racing, martial arts then simply don't consume alcohol or unhealthy food and don't do motor racing or martial arts your not harming any innocent third party

If you don't want to be shot by some freak don't go to school?

I agree though with cars one can hurt other people. For that reason we can't use formula 1 racing cars on normal streets, we have speed limits and numerous other rules to protect others, we must all prove we know how to handle cars by doing a driving test, there are regular police checks to make sure we're staying save and we must regularly show the authorities that we keep our cars in a save condition. What's wrong in thinking guns should be similarly regulated? I hardly think any of us are calling for a total gun ban but is it even too much to ask that not every physcho is able to easily buy a gun?
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  #602  
Old 20.12.2012, 14:01
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

Phil you are completely missing the point between production and consumption.

Consumption of a product for its primary purpose by the end user:
- unhealthy food - the user may or may not get fat - die young - cost the country money
- alcohol - the user may or may not become an alcoholic - die young - cost the country money
- car - the user may or may not drive the car beyond their own capabilities - possibly killing themselves and/or someone else

Where as a GUN, has a primary purpose of KILLING SOMEONE. Not SOMETHING. SOMEONE.

If an average person buys a Glock 9mm with a 22 round magazine they are buying a gun desired to be used by the military as a sidearm - and desired to kill another human being.

That is not the same as buy a Ford Focus and driving 130kmh on the autobahn.

We have learned that advertising of tobacco, selling it to children and exposing ourselves too it is generally a "bad thing". We have learned this over a number of decades. We have learned that excess consumption of alcohol and/or fatty foods is likely to shorten our lives. Again we learned this over a number of decades.

We have also learned that if you allow your population to try and out-arm each other, they will, at some point, end up killing each other. And yet over a number of decades attempts to reduce this number have failed.

If you look at the number of gun massacres over the last 10 years in the US it is scary. Yes, the US is a big sample size, and they have a lot of people with a lot of guns, but what continues to happens should not.

If it makes you feel better compare gun ownership to eating a cheeseburger - but as a basis for an argument it is about as structured as the lettuce leaf in a Big Mac
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  #603  
Old 20.12.2012, 14:08
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Any types of guns?
i'm not an expert on guns. but i guess handguns, rifles, shotguns.

licensing/testing to make sure the buyer can handle it safely and is not a criminal/insane/etc.
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  #604  
Old 20.12.2012, 14:29
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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If an average person buys a Glock 9mm with a 22 round magazine they are buying a gun desired to be used by the military as a sidearm - and desired to kill another human being.
And you are completely missing the point that people are not buying guns to kill each other (as opposed to military use). A couple of friends of mine own Glocks. They've put thousands of rounds through them.

What proportion would you say went through a piece of paper and the number that went through a human body?

Yes, guns can kill. Kitchen knives can kill. Cars can kill. But people are not buying them to kill others. Yes, there will be a minority who will kill with a knife, car or gun.

But in general, guns are not bought by ordinary people to kill each other and no amount of writing in ALL CAPS is going to change that fact.

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If you look at the number of gun massacres over the last 10 years in the US it is scary. Yes, the US is a big sample size, and they have a lot of people with a lot of guns, but what continues to happens should not.
Gun crime barely registers. Gun homicides counts for 0.4% of deaths in the US compared to 18.1% tobacco, 3.5% alcohol, 1.8% traffic accidents. And banning guns would not reduce the number killed to zero as 1. guns would still be available illegally, 2. murders would still take place with difference choice of weapons.
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  #605  
Old 20.12.2012, 14:37
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

Again Phil - you are not comparing apples with apples.

What is number of deaths caused by smoking which are not of the consumer directly? Alchohol? "Unhealthy" food? Cars?

The primary purpose of a gun is to KILL. Designers don't sit down and go:
We need to design this gun to be more effective at putting a high speed metal projectile through a piece of paper.

Direct Alcohol deaths in the US (2009) - 24,500 out of 2,400,000 = 1%
Homicide (all forms) - 16,800 out of 2,400,000 = 0.67%

Staggeringly heart disease and maligant neoplasms account for 50% of US deaths in 2009
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Old 20.12.2012, 14:37
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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But in general, guns are not bought by ordinary people and no amount of writing in ALL CAPS is going to change that fact.
Great. People who aren't ordinary own guns. The world feels MUCH safer now. (dripping with irony)

By the way, I know a lot of unordinary Americans. I'm not sure if they'd like your generalization, though.
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  #607  
Old 20.12.2012, 14:41
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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i'm not an expert on guns. but i guess handguns, rifles, shotguns.

licensing/testing to make sure the buyer can handle it safely and is not a criminal/insane/etc.
And surely the same tests for anyone who has access to the gun as well including people living in the same household or friends who visit?

And, people become mentally unstable over time? Perhaps due to a breakdown?

Or are you suggesting that they only need to be sane when the buy the weapon?

It's getting quite complicated (and expensive) to control.
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  #608  
Old 20.12.2012, 14:46
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

Guns is one thing but proliferation of fu..ken video games and movies in which every other one is about killing - that's a problem nowadays. Give these games to psycho and second thing they will want to play with real guns. All this freaking world went nuts - marketing of evil !
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  #609  
Old 20.12.2012, 14:47
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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And you are completely missing the point that people are not buying guns to kill each other. A couple of friends of mine own Glocks. They've put thousands of rounds through them.

What proportion would you say went through a piece of paper and the number that went through a human body?

Yes, guns can kill. Kitchen knives can kill. Cars can kill. But people are not buying them to kill others. Yes, there will be a minority who will kill with a knife, car or gun.

But in general, guns are not bought by ordinary people and no amount of writing in ALL CAPS is going to change that fact.



Gun crime barely registers. Gun homicides counts for 0.4% of deaths in the US compared to 18.1% tobacco, 3.5% alcohol, 1.8% traffic accidents. And banning guns would not reduce the number killed to zero as 1. guns would still be available illegally, 2. murders would still take place with difference choice of weapons.
Where do you get those stats from Phil? Seem bit out of proportion. Particularly the alcohol one. Why wasn't obesity mentioned either?

I think they should ban guns.

Anyone caught with a gun should get automatic 5 years in prison.

Guns should only be owned by police and licensed people (hunting), stored in secure containers when not in use, anyone who falls foul of the securing requirement, automatic 2.5 years in prison.

Yes, gangs will still get guns. But who really cares about gangs killing each other? Thats always going to happen. Gang members dont go shooting up kids at schools either. Sometimes innocents get caught in gang violence, but primarily gang on gang, let them kill themselves. Thats a whole other social argument to address anyway.

Unless for hunting or maintain order, or in wars, what do people need guns for? Cause its fun to shoot cans in the woods? Well great, there is a video game for that now.

The message has to be, a gun is not a toy, its not for fun, its not to let off steam, its to kill and disarm. It kills animals, it kills people, it disarms people with intent to cause harm.

There is no other need for a gun.
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  #610  
Old 20.12.2012, 14:48
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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And surely the same tests for anyone who has access to the gun as well including people living in the same household or friends who visit?
secured storage
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Old 20.12.2012, 14:50
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Where do you get those stats from Phil? Seem bit out of proportion. Particularly the alcohol one. Why wasn't obesity mentioned either?
obesity is 4.6%
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Old 20.12.2012, 14:52
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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It would feel nicer if you avoided posting your trolling and childish comments. They're not even funny.
They are not meant to be funny as said- they are just smug, cynical and judgmental.
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Old 20.12.2012, 15:00
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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They are not meant to be funny as said- they are just smug, cynical and judgmental.
Whereas 344 posts written on the internet by residents of a small country in Central Europe, most of whom have no right to vote in the United States, have done a great deal to prevent nutters shooting up schools over there.

Isn't it lovely to be an agent of change?
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Old 20.12.2012, 15:04
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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They are not meant to be funny as said- they are just smug, cynical and judgmental.
Would I be cynical and judgmental if I did consider them to be quite funny?
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  #615  
Old 20.12.2012, 15:07
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Whereas 344 posts written on the internet by residents of a small country in Central Europe, most of whom have no right to vote in the United States, have done a great deal to prevent nutters shooting up schools over there.

Isn't it lovely to be an agent of change?
Almost as if the title of the thread was: "SIGN HERE TO BAN GUNS IN THE U.S.A."????

It would appear it is a debate between ex-pats living in Switzerland on the subject of gun ownership in the UK.

(And when you referred to 344 posts - I thought you meant those of yours that were useful)
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Old 20.12.2012, 15:15
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

We live in an increasingly global environment- and the influence of the USA has a very strong influence, directly or indirectly on all of us. What happens there now could well transfer to here in the future- so it is relevant to discuss it. For instance the influence (or not) of extremely violent video games on some of our youngsters, especially those with mental health problems. To pretend that what happens in the US does not have an influence on the rest of the world is blinkered.
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Old 20.12.2012, 15:16
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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it's illusory to some extent because if you want to kill people you can do that easily. if i wanted to, i could kill tens of thousands of people - though it wouldn't be with guns.
A fellow Lord of the Sith, I see.
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Old 20.12.2012, 15:17
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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To pretend that what happens in the US does not have an influence on the rest of the world is blinkered.
And who's pretending that?

Please pay attention, Odile.
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Old 20.12.2012, 15:19
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Whereas 344 posts written on the internet by residents of a small country in Central Europe, most of whom have no right to vote in the United States, have done a great deal to prevent nutters shooting up schools over there.

Isn't it lovely to be an agent of change?
Hey, this born and bred cowgirl finds international discussions on America's arms quite refreshing.

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Old 20.12.2012, 15:21
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Hey, this born and bred cowgirl finds international discussions on America's arms quite refreshing.
Refreshing, perhaps, but pointless and rather self-indulgent.

It's just dinner party chit-chat gone digital.

More croutons anyone?
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