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  #681  
Old 21.12.2012, 17:11
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Phil - You will find that according to DOT in the US - Americans drove 240 million miles in September. It took about 2 minutes of research to find that nugget of information.

In fact by the end of September it was 2,200 million year to date.
i was referring to guns being fired 10 times. do you admit you just pulled that number out of your ass?

maybe you want to give the ratio of deaths to the volume of a car and deaths to the volume of a gun? you could come up with with an infinite variety of such statistics and they would all equally miss the point.
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  #682  
Old 21.12.2012, 17:19
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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gun sales always spike after such high profile shootings.

Really!? So "business as usual", right? Is that a sociological explanation for socially (pardon, is there such thing as: society?) unacceptable behavior called violence?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...-on-e-bay.html

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December 19, 2012

READER GAIL RAMPKE EMAILS: “The problem with attacks on the NRA is that leftist politicians either don’t know (or pretend not to know) what the NRA actually *is*. This NRA member is a 60 year old female chemist. They never get that – that we’re not some insane, isolatable sub-set. We’re America.” America’s largest and oldest civil rights organization. Naturally, it’s going to be demonized by those who oppose civil rights.

http://pjmedia.com/instapundit/160010/

is this joke? maybe, but I believe it isn't.
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  #683  
Old 21.12.2012, 17:50
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

via http://kottke.org/12/12/roger-ebert-...hool-shootings

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Let me tell you a story. The day after Columbine, I was interviewed for the Tom Brokaw news program. The reporter had been assigned a theory and was seeking sound bites to support it. "Wouldn't you say," she asked, "that killings like this are influenced by violent movies?" No, I said, I wouldn't say that. "But what about 'Basketball Diaries'?" she asked. "Doesn't that have a scene of a boy walking into a school with a machine gun?" The obscure 1995 Leonardo Di Caprio movie did indeed have a brief fantasy scene of that nature, I said, but the movie failed at the box office (it grossed only $2.5 million), and it's unlikely the Columbine killers saw it.

The reporter looked disappointed, so I offered her my theory. "Events like this," I said, "if they are influenced by anything, are influenced by news programs like your own. When an unbalanced kid walks into a school and starts shooting, it becomes a major media event. Cable news drops ordinary programming and goes around the clock with it. The story is assigned a logo and a theme song; these two kids were packaged as the Trench Coat Mafia. The message is clear to other disturbed kids around the country: If I shoot up my school, I can be famous. The TV will talk about nothing else but me. Experts will try to figure out what I was thinking. The kids and teachers at school will see they shouldn't have messed with me. I'll go out in a blaze of glory."

In short, I said, events like Columbine are influenced far less by violent movies than by CNN, the NBC Nightly News and all the other news media, who glorify the killers in the guise of "explaining" them. I commended the policy at the Sun-Times, where our editor said the paper would no longer feature school killings on Page 1. The reporter thanked me and turned off the camera. Of course the interview was never used. They found plenty of talking heads to condemn violent movies, and everybody was happy.
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  #684  
Old 21.12.2012, 18:53
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

Hello everyone. It has been a couple of years since I have posted here as I left Switzerland 2 years ago, but I do like to check in from time to time. The variety of opinions found on this forum is of a quality seldom found anywhere else on the net.
One point I have not noticed here though is that the murder rate in the United States has dropped significantly over the past several years. From a high of 10.2 per 100,000 in 1980 to the current (2011) rate of 4.7. I think we can all agree that just one murder is too many, at least we are headed in the right direction.

Many of the posts I see here show a deep concern over the possession of semi automatic assault type rifles being purchased by civilians. I want to disclose that I am not a gun nut. I do not own one of these weapons, I do not plan to own one, and I cannot think of any foreseeable event in my future that would be enhanced by owning one. I carried one for 22 years as a part of my employment and it saved my life a few times, but most of the time it was 7.8 pounds of weight I would have preferred not to have to carry on 25 mile hikes. Despite my lack of interest in them, I do support the rights of a citizen of the United States to own one. I see them as a bit of a Shark in the water. By this I mean that although only 12 people on this planet were killed by a shark last year, most people are scared shitless of them.

Why do people buy these rifles? I don't know to be honest. I imagine they envision wide spread riots that have been forecasted for years yet never seem to materialize, or perhaps to protect themselves from the zombie outbreaks that loom just around the corner. Most likely it is because they want to look cool with their menacing rifle, like the lethal soldier that they never bothered to become. Whatever. If that is what floats their boat, more power to them.

Sales of these weapons have skyrocketed since the 1980's when they were first marketed in earnest by gun manufacturers in the United States. I know several people who own them. Due to my military experience, I am often sought out for advice on which gun to buy. I recommend bolt action scoped rifles because I admire their inherent accuracy. My advice never seems to take hold and the buyer usually buys a poor quality military knock off that looks interesting, covered in laser lights and flashlights, weighs a ton, and fires ammunition faster than most people can afford to supply it with.

With so many people buying them, obviously more people are killing with them, right? Last year 323 people were killed with a rifle in the United States. That is a lot, but when compared to hand guns (pistols) at 6,220 it doesn't seem like so much. A handgun would be an obvious better choice due to its concealability, but when you bring up the fact that the equally large shotgun edged out the rifle at 356 victims it kind of ruins the image of the scary rifle. I should also bring up the fact that the FBI does not differentiate between the more traditional hunting type rifles and assault type rifles when they collect their data, so that lessens their murderous footprint even more. Although assault weapon sales are skyrocketing, murders committed with a rifle have steadily dropped since 2007 from 453 to 323 last year.

A bit of data that I found interesting in the FBI's data is that last year more than twice as many people in the U.S. were killed by either hands, fists, or feet than were killed by rifles. Apparently people do kill people from time to time.

I guess the point I am try to make here is that although the events that took place in Newtown Connecticut were very sad and regrettable, the type of weapon used was not as consequential as some would like to believe. It could have easily been committed with a hunting shotgun just like the ones available in the United Kingdom. I have seen so many people clamoring all over internet for the banning of these weapons, but in my opinion they are just a shark in the water. Scary, menacing, lethal, but not a likely way to die.

I think we need to address the problems of why people kill people rather than take away their tools. A murderer without a gun is still a murderer. He just needs to look for the next tool.
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  #685  
Old 21.12.2012, 19:05
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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I think we need to address the problems of why people kill people rather than take away their tools. A murderer without a gun is still a murderer. He just needs to look for the next tool.
Nicely balanced post, except this last point, which clearly for many of us just doesn't make sense. Back and forth the arguments have gone, with no agreement, but for those of us brought up in a gun-free world this just defies logic.

Sure, if someone is determined to kill me, individually, there are many ways he could do it, but would you not accept that it's a damn sight easier, and therefore more likely to be put into action, if he has access to guns than if the most lethal implement he could easily obtain would be a kitchen knife?
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  #686  
Old 21.12.2012, 19:38
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Nicely balanced post, except this last point, which clearly for many of us just doesn't make sense. Back and forth the arguments have gone, with no agreement, but for those of us brought up in a gun-free world this just defies logic.

Sure, if someone is determined to kill me, individually, there are many ways he could do it, but would you not accept that it's a damn sight easier, and therefore more likely to be put into action, if he has access to guns than if the most lethal implement he could easily obtain would be a kitchen knife?
But why would he want to kill you? What factors in his life brought him to the point where taking a life became an acceptable action. Poverty? Social norms in segments of society? Apathetic parenting? Untreated psychological problems that could have been identified by someone who knew what to look for and actually gave a crap about someone other than themselves? These are what killers are made of, and with a lot of effort I think that factors like these can be changed.

If I wanted to kill someone, I would probably wack them over the head with a golf club. Much easier to obtain than a gun even in the United States, and provided that it was not damaged I could use it for sport after a good wipe down. I guess I am practical like that.
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  #687  
Old 21.12.2012, 20:17
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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I think we need to address the problems of why people kill people rather than take away their tools. A murderer without a gun is still a murderer. He just needs to look for the next tool.
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But why would he want to kill you? What factors in his life brought him to the point where taking a life became an acceptable action. Poverty? Social norms in segments of society? Apathetic parenting? Untreated psychological problems that could have been identified by someone who knew what to look for and actually gave a crap about someone other than themselves? These are what killers are made of, and with a lot of effort I think that factors like these can be changed.

If I wanted to kill someone, I would probably wack them over the head with a golf club. Much easier to obtain than a gun even in the United States, and provided that it was not damaged I could use it for sport after a good wipe down. I guess I am practical like that.
That's the whole point of entire debate. Guns don't kill themselves plus any tool can be lethal. The question why people kill and what motives drive them should be addressed here rather than what kind of weapon they choose.

In country like SA where cold blooded murders are committed on daily basis with media not covering even fraction of it, you can find anything from cash in transit heist committed with AK-47's that pierce any armor, car hijackings with acids, house breakings, gang shootings with pistols and culpable homicides committed with anything from knife, broom stick to kitchen fork. It's mostly social and economic pressure driving people to the edge, inequity, rivalry, infidelity, satanism and even witchcraft in rural areas with cult ritual murder of innocent virgins or a child. The most crazy stuff on earth that smug European upbringing would make you shiver. Difference is that 500 bucks which will be stolen from you here will equal in murder over there. The culture where people defend themselves with guns in the households. Have you heard about Cape flat crimes committed down in Cape Town with knives like in Mexico, Joburg where I lived is famous for gun-committed crimes. I believe it is analogy to the States. Sadly most gun owners believe that they will serve them for own protection. Reality is that they become victims of their own guns. Police if not corrupted few fights the crime and need to use machine guns because in some hoods this is the only way to stop the armed up to teeth hudlums. It's very rough out there and it's not a movie but reality.

If you read something like news: www.news24.com you will understand what I'm talking about. Reduce the guns possession and ask the criminals if they are willing to do so as well.
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  #688  
Old 21.12.2012, 20:18
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

The NRA has found the ideal solution : armed guards in every school And arms sales have more than doubled in the last few days - automatic weapons being the Christmas present of choice.

And we complain about limited shopping hours and the like.
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  #689  
Old 21.12.2012, 20:51
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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That's the whole point of entire debate. Guns don't kill themselves plus any tool can be lethal. The question why people kill and what motives drive them should be addressed here rather than what kind of weapon they choose.
I find the city of New York to be interesting. In 1990, over twenty two hundred murders were commited there. In 2011 they had 513. I do not doubt that more strict gun laws were a contributing factor that left New York city with a per capita murder rate of 6.4 per 100,000 inhabitants (2010). Not great but down considerably from 20 years prior. Other cities with high homicide rates have also instituted very strict gun control laws but did not see positive results. Chicago; 15.2, Washington D.C.; 20.9, Detroit; 34.5, and of course New Orleans with a per capita murder rate of 72.8 inhabitants being killed per 100,000! If it were it's own country it would be second on the list.

Obviously gun control has not been the cure all that it was hoped to be. What made New York so different from the other cities? I don't have that answer, but it shows me that a difference can be made. I don't believe that taking away the guns is the answer. We have so many already, and I don't feel that our society here is one that would allow it.
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Old 21.12.2012, 21:01
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?



Apparently these are gaining in popularity this Christmas season as well.

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Old 21.12.2012, 21:22
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Old 21.12.2012, 21:29
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Obviously gun control has not been the cure all that it was hoped to be. What made New York so different from the other cities? I don't have that answer, but it shows me that a difference can be made. I don't believe that taking away the guns is the answer. We have so many already, and I don't feel that our society here is one that would allow it.
People once said the same thing about slavery but you've got rid of that. It's a big challenge though.


But, what has happened in New York is definitely a good example to the world and something of which the New Yorkers should be proud.
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  #693  
Old 21.12.2012, 21:43
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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I find the city of New York to be interesting. In 1990, over twenty two hundred murders were commited there. In 2011 they had 513. I do not doubt that more strict gun laws were a contributing factor that left New York city with a per capita murder rate of 6.4 per 100,000 inhabitants (2010). Not great but down considerably from 20 years prior. Other cities with high homicide rates have also instituted very strict gun control laws but did not see positive results. Chicago; 15.2, Washington D.C.; 20.9, Detroit; 34.5, and of course New Orleans with a per capita murder rate of 72.8 inhabitants being killed per 100,000! If it were it's own country it would be second on the list.

Obviously gun control has not been the cure all that it was hoped to be. What made New York so different from the other cities? I don't have that answer, but it shows me that a difference can be made. I don't believe that taking away the guns is the answer. We have so many already, and I don't feel that our society here is one that would allow it.
It great to see some big cities shaking off the yoke of the past and reducing their stats. I found online reports on South African crime stats which tend to drop significantly over past ten years but bad stuff still happens and average civilians lack confidence to admit they feel safe.

http://www.saps.gov.za/statistics/re...urgcentral.pdf

http://www.crimestatssa.com/?provinc...dr=Douglasdale
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Old 22.12.2012, 08:29
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Pennsylvania Shooting: Two killed at church, one on roadway

Another shooter in the states... more ammunition for the gun control lobbyists.
Source


Some people simply have a death wish.
JC
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Old 22.12.2012, 09:47
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Another shooter in the states... more ammunition for the gun control lobbyists.
Source


Some people simply have a death wish.
JC
If an individual has a death wish and takes him/herself out, ok, maybe nothing to be done. It's when other unwilling people are removed that i have a problem with. And it just seems to me that easy access to powerful guns makes it easier.
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Old 22.12.2012, 10:03
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?



A pro-gun argument.
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Old 22.12.2012, 10:36
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Hello everyone. It has been a couple of years since I have posted here as I left Switzerland 2 years ago, but I do like to check in from time to time. The variety of opinions found on this forum is of a quality seldom found anywhere else on the net.
One point I have not noticed here though is that the murder rate in the United States has dropped significantly over the past several years. From a high of 10.2 per 100,000 in 1980 to the current (2011) rate of 4.7. I think we can all agree that just one murder is too many, at least we are headed in the right direction.

Many of the posts I see here show a deep concern over the possession of semi automatic assault type rifles being purchased by civilians. I want to disclose that I am not a gun nut. I do not own one of these weapons, I do not plan to own one, and I cannot think of any foreseeable event in my future that would be enhanced by owning one. I carried one for 22 years as a part of my employment and it saved my life a few times, but most of the time it was 7.8 pounds of weight I would have preferred not to have to carry on 25 mile hikes. Despite my lack of interest in them, I do support the rights of a citizen of the United States to own one. I see them as a bit of a Shark in the water. By this I mean that although only 12 people on this planet were killed by a shark last year, most people are scared shitless of them.

Why do people buy these rifles? I don't know to be honest. I imagine they envision wide spread riots that have been forecasted for years yet never seem to materialize, or perhaps to protect themselves from the zombie outbreaks that loom just around the corner. Most likely it is because they want to look cool with their menacing rifle, like the lethal soldier that they never bothered to become. Whatever. If that is what floats their boat, more power to them.

Sales of these weapons have skyrocketed since the 1980's when they were first marketed in earnest by gun manufacturers in the United States. I know several people who own them. Due to my military experience, I am often sought out for advice on which gun to buy. I recommend bolt action scoped rifles because I admire their inherent accuracy. My advice never seems to take hold and the buyer usually buys a poor quality military knock off that looks interesting, covered in laser lights and flashlights, weighs a ton, and fires ammunition faster than most people can afford to supply it with.

With so many people buying them, obviously more people are killing with them, right? Last year 323 people were killed with a rifle in the United States. That is a lot, but when compared to hand guns (pistols) at 6,220 it doesn't seem like so much. A handgun would be an obvious better choice due to its concealability, but when you bring up the fact that the equally large shotgun edged out the rifle at 356 victims it kind of ruins the image of the scary rifle. I should also bring up the fact that the FBI does not differentiate between the more traditional hunting type rifles and assault type rifles when they collect their data, so that lessens their murderous footprint even more. Although assault weapon sales are skyrocketing, murders committed with a rifle have steadily dropped since 2007 from 453 to 323 last year.

A bit of data that I found interesting in the FBI's data is that last year more than twice as many people in the U.S. were killed by either hands, fists, or feet than were killed by rifles. Apparently people do kill people from time to time.

I guess the point I am try to make here is that although the events that took place in Newtown Connecticut were very sad and regrettable, the type of weapon used was not as consequential as some would like to believe. It could have easily been committed with a hunting shotgun just like the ones available in the United Kingdom. I have seen so many people clamoring all over internet for the banning of these weapons, but in my opinion they are just a shark in the water. Scary, menacing, lethal, but not a likely way to die.

I think we need to address the problems of why people kill people rather than take away their tools. A murderer without a gun is still a murderer. He just needs to look for the next tool.
couple of points you're missing - first, the current murder rate in the US is generally consistent with its historical rate, the decrease over the last 25-30 years is driven in large part by the spike during the late 70's to mid 90's as a result of the drug trade. second, although the laws are not terribly comprehensive, the US has implemented a series of gun control legislation over the last 25-30 years (mostly related to registration) that may in fact be contributing to the descrease in the murder rate.

there is no question that people would still find ways to kill other people without guns, but there is also no question that ease of access to guns makes that killing easier.
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Old 22.12.2012, 15:00
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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A pro-gun argument.
Because low-employment rates, one of the best educational and social welfare system in the world and very stable society and economic AND a sound attitude to weapons etc. has nothing to do with it...

just because it works in Switzerland doesn't mean that it works in US (which it doesn't by the way)...and it's trickier to get your hand on a gun here, i.e. more gun control...
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Old 22.12.2012, 15:09
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Because low-employment rates, one of the best educational and social welfare system in the world and very stable society and economic AND a sound attitude to weapons etc. has nothing to do with it...

just because it works in Switzerland doesn't mean that it works in US (which it doesn't by the way)...and it's trickier to get your hand on a gun here, i.e. more gun control...
Not too sure if it seems to "work" here as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ted_death_rate

IMO, Switzerland doesn't fare too well considering its low population and socio-economic and cultural diversity.
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Old 22.12.2012, 15:21
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Re: Pennsylvania Shooting: Two killed at church, one on roadway

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If an individual has a death wish and takes him/herself out, ok, maybe nothing to be done. It's when other unwilling people are removed that i have a problem with. And it just seems to me that easy access to powerful guns makes it easier.
Sad that he didn't have the nerve to just pull the trigger on himself.

Look at it like this, he could have used a knife, an axe, an airplane, a car. But no... he unfortunately decided to take others out with him then leave himself open for a police bullet. Wimp
JC
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brown, darren wilson, ferguson, gun control, guns, kids, police, shooting range, usa




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