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  #721  
Old 23.12.2012, 22:01
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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I find the city of New York to be interesting. In 1990, over twenty two hundred murders were commited there. In 2011 they had 513. I do not doubt that more strict gun laws were a contributing factor that left New York city with a per capita murder rate of 6.4 per 100,000 inhabitants (2010). Not great but down considerably from 20 years prior. Other cities with high homicide rates have also instituted very strict gun control laws but did not see positive results. Chicago; 15.2, Washington D.C.; 20.9, Detroit; 34.5, and of course New Orleans with a per capita murder rate of 72.8 inhabitants being killed per 100,000! If it were it's own country it would be second on the list.

Obviously gun control has not been the cure all that it was hoped to be. What made New York so different from the other cities? I don't have that answer, but it shows me that a difference can be made. I don't believe that taking away the guns is the answer. We have so many already, and I don't feel that our society here is one that would allow it.
Strict gun control in NYC is like putting mouse traps in one apartment of a rat infested building.
Weapons flow in to NYC from States South and West of it. To use it as an example of Gun Control not working , is disingenuous to say the least.
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  #722  
Old 23.12.2012, 22:06
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Not too sure if it seems to "work" here as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ted_death_rate

IMO, Switzerland doesn't fare too well considering its low population and socio-economic and cultural diversity.

Crime rate lower than Finland and 3.5 to 10 if compared with the USA . Cultural diversity usually is a reason for more crime and not for less. And the number of population is irrelevant really.
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  #723  
Old 23.12.2012, 22:24
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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NO argument as the figure is based on the military rifles, which you are NOT allowed to use and do not have the ammunition. And which is owned by the federal army and with you just "on loan"

If you deduct those tools, the rate gets down
Think deducting the tools from gun ownership will reduce the rate the still further.
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  #724  
Old 23.12.2012, 22:26
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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I find the city of New York to be interesting. In 1990, over twenty two hundred murders were commited there. In 2011 they had 513. I do not doubt that more strict gun laws were a contributing factor that left New York city with a per capita murder rate of 6.4 per 100,000 inhabitants (2010). Not great but down considerably from 20 years prior. Other cities with high homicide rates have also instituted very strict gun control laws but did not see positive results. Chicago; 15.2, Washington D.C.; 20.9, Detroit; 34.5, and of course New Orleans with a per capita murder rate of 72.8 inhabitants being killed per 100,000! If it were it's own country it would be second on the list.

Obviously gun control has not been the cure all that it was hoped to be. What made New York so different from the other cities? I don't have that answer, but it shows me that a difference can be made. I don't believe that taking away the guns is the answer. We have so many already, and I don't feel that our society here is one that would allow it.
the difference is 110% in enforcement - NYC is a completely different city today than it was in 1990, which is in large part due to the focused efforts of Guiliani and those after him in cleaning up the streets and changing the city's culture. meanwhile, there is absolutely zero enforcement of existing laws in DC, Detroit or New Orleans, let alone time or energy to spend enforcing laws relating to gun ownership or registration.
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  #725  
Old 24.12.2012, 10:30
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Crime rate lower than Finland and 3.5 to 10 if compared with the USA . Cultural diversity usually is a reason for more crime and not for less. And the number of population is irrelevant really.
The homicide rate is nearly double that of Finland, though Switzerland does have a suicide rate that is surprisingly high for a country below the 60th parallell. The really interesting number is the rather high number of 'unintentional' deaths given the conscription and overall gun safety culture in both.

This probably isn't the result of diversity, more or less.
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  #726  
Old 24.12.2012, 12:10
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

Very sad indeed, she deserves better.

The scapegoating of Nancy Lanza
She was Adam Lanza's first victim. Yet while the other 26 dead in Sandy Hook are rightly mourned, Nancy is being disgracefully smeared



Lionel Shriver
The Guardian, Sunday 23 December 2012 14.30 GMT

According to the script in progress, implicitly or explicitly, we blame Nancy Lanza for her son Adam's baffling rampage – if only for keeping five weapons in her home.

Addressing the bereaved community of Sandy Hook last week, President Obama read the names of Adam Lanza's victims – all 26. On the one-week anniversary of America's second-most lethal school shooting, bells tolled across the nation – 26 times. But even omitting his suicide, the impenetrable killer's victims numbered 27.

American education has not so deteriorated that even the president can't count. The discreetly deleted fatality was Adam's first and no doubt primary target: his mother, shot in her bed, four times in the head. Yet grief on Nancy Lanza's account has been stinting. With funerals of children and teachers standing-room-only, Nancy's service last Thursday drew a sparse two dozen relatives.

According to the script in progress, Nancy Lanza doesn't deserve our tears. Implicitly or explicitly, we blame Adam's mother for his baffling rampage – if only for keeping five weapons in her home, four of which her son appropriated. Echoing similar sentiments all over the web, one White House Twitter follower wrote of Nancy, "RIP, but she's culpable".

Let's set aside European disapproval of civilians bearing arms, ever. If only by a circular definition, whereby anyone who systematically massacres 20 first-graders is ipso facto crazy, Nancy Lanza's 20-year-old was not well. On the face of it, then, was keeping guns in her house gross negligence? In which case, one more time, we get to demonise the mother.

Sandy Hook has been the most misreported story in recent memory, but a few facts may have emerged. To date, authorities have not located any confirmed diagnosis for Adam Lanza. Relatives and former classmates say he had Asperger's syndrome, but this mild form of autism has no correlation with violence. The boy is described as anything but menacing – rather, as withdrawn, antisocial, even "meek", according to an official at his high school, who explained that Adam was only assigned a psychologist because a scrawny, cringing loner might be tormented by peers.

Yet a Mail Online comment questions "why a mom with a clearly disturbed son, who most likely had committed other acts of violence (probably in the privacy of his own home) would stock such an arsenal". After all, when the facts don't bolster your viewpoint, you can always make them up. For Adam had no criminal record. Beyond 10-year-old temper tantrums – typical for Asperger's children – we lack even hearsay evidence that this kid was ever violent before. No one claims there were "warning signs".

Even the oft-printed assertion that Nancy frequently took her sons to shooting ranges is not bearing scrutiny. At a nearby range, police pored for hours over every sign-in, and found no Lanza at target practice in 2012.

Nevertheless, Nancy Lanza has been disparaged from the start. Multiple stories have pegged her as a "prepper" – a survivalist gearing up for economic collapse by stocking weapons and tinned food. Yet this gonzo tag hails from a single, biased source, Nancy's sister-in-law, and has since been contradicted by friends. An acquaintance said she seemed "high-strung" – an opaque and prospectively neutral adjective that went viral, repeated to insinuate that the mother herself might have been unbalanced. And tut-tut: she never seemed eager to invite neighbours into her home.

Much of what we now know about Nancy is none of our business: the square footage of her house, the size of her alimony payments. For the purpose of deciding whether her murder is worthy of our mourning, it is our business whether her son was overtly unhinged, so should never have been living in a household with guns.

Unnervingly, to our knowledge Adam Lanza never gave any outward expression to the malice festering in his head. Before that awful Friday, he wouldn't have appeared necessarily more dangerous than any other shy, quiet young man.

Around 270 million weapons in the US are kept legally in private hands. Presumably, a good proportion of American gun owners have families – including college-age boys still living at home. Every such American is thus guilty of the exact same dereliction as Nancy Lanza was. Do they all deserve to die? Indeed, any gun owner assumes the risk that the weapon will be misused, perhaps to horrific effect.

Sure, bring on the gun control debate. But Nancy Lanza is a scapegoat. A vibrant woman of 52 was killed in Connecticut, and her death might have merited at least one damn bell toll.

Source
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  #727  
Old 24.12.2012, 12:34
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Very sad indeed, she deserves better.

The scapegoating of Nancy Lanza
She was Adam Lanza's first victim. Yet while the other 26 dead in Sandy Hook are rightly mourned, Nancy is being disgracefully smeared



Source
It is terribly sad. There is so little reliable information about this tragedy. From the time it was happening, so much misinformation. People want desperately to understand why this happened, to find a cause, point a finger of blame. Nancy Lanza is a very convenient victim. It is very easy for people - normally sympathetic, reasonable people - to blame her. I don't think it is that simple though.
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  #728  
Old 24.12.2012, 13:28
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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It is terribly sad. There is so little reliable information about this tragedy. From the time it was happening, so much misinformation. People want desperately to understand why this happened, to find a cause, point a finger of blame. Nancy Lanza is a very convenient victim. It is very easy for people - normally sympathetic, reasonable people - to blame her. I don't think it is that simple though.
Lets face it, the hausfraus are always quick to judge the mother to blame for just about any failing of her children, no matter how old. It's not sad, it's infuriating that we are still prisoners of this sort of nattering Neanderthal thinking. Nobody is blaming the father who must have done something interesting to end the marriage to warrant over 250k per year in alimony alone. Few people can be a 1%-er on alimony....lots of questions remain.

Very little real information has been forthcoming in the last week, thoug I did read something in the nyt about her trying to get her son some mental help, failing and was about to have him committed which is what may have set him off...though none of that has been conclusively confirmed.
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  #729  
Old 24.12.2012, 14:31
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Lets face it, the hausfraus are always quick to judge the mother to blame for just about any failing of her children, no matter how old. It's not sad, it's infuriating that we are still prisoners of this sort of nattering Neanderthal thinking. Nobody is blaming the father who must have done something interesting to end the marriage to warrant over 250k per year in alimony alone. Few people can be a 1%-er on alimony....lots of questions remain.

Very little real information has been forthcoming in the last week, thoug I did read something in the nyt about her trying to get her son some mental help, failing and was about to have him committed which is what may have set him off...though none of that has been conclusively confirmed.
No, it's not just hausfraus. Belief in a just world is fairly common.

http://www.spring.org.uk/2012/06/the...l-delusion.php
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  #730  
Old 24.12.2012, 18:29
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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No, it's not just hausfraus. Belief in a just world is fairly common.

http://www.spring.org.uk/2012/06/the...l-delusion.php
Well, you didn't watch the feeding frenzy of the media interviewing anyone with a pulse that might be connected to the mother and most of them were the hausfraus she lived near and called friends. I don't know if it's belief in a 'just' world that makes people so incredibly vituperous, but it's annoying that even in this era of women's lib that whatever a child does that's bad is always blamed on the mother.
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  #731  
Old 24.12.2012, 19:02
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Well, you didn't watch the feeding frenzy of the media interviewing anyone with a pulse that might be connected to the mother and most of them were the hausfraus she lived near and called friends. I don't know if it's belief in a 'just' world that makes people so incredibly vituperous, but it's annoying that even in this era of women's lib that whatever a child does that's bad is always blamed on the mother.
No, thankfully, i didn't watch it. This behavior occurs when people can't find a cause for something inexplicable. Fairly well documented in research. And of course, people overestimate the influence of parenting, discounting the force of the kid's own personality and individual characteristics. Another rationalization.

Era of women's lib, though? I thought feminism was becoming a dirty word.
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  #732  
Old 24.12.2012, 19:20
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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Era of women's lib, though? I thought feminism was becoming a dirty word.
hahah, good point. feminism is a bad word but b****h is fine
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  #733  
Old 24.12.2012, 21:00
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hahah, good point. feminism is a bad word but b****h is fine
Ain't that the truth!
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  #734  
Old 24.12.2012, 23:54
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Further developments in the shootings in USA

First of all it seems as though a trap was set, a house was set on fire, and when the fire crew arrived they were shot and killed, 2 dead 3 injured,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20838925

and a petition has been raised (31'000 signatures) to deport Piers Morgan after a debate about gun control on CNN,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-20838729

Words simply fail me! When is someone going to offer a sound & sensible change to the senseless violence?
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  #735  
Old 25.12.2012, 01:45
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Re: Further developments in the shootings in USA

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  #736  
Old 25.12.2012, 02:31
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a petition has been raised (31'000 signatures) to deport Piers Morgan after a debate about gun control on CNN,
I propose a counter-petition to stop him coming back
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  #737  
Old 25.12.2012, 03:32
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Re: Further developments in the shootings in USA

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I propose a counter-petition to stop him coming back
...watching that show fleetingly, I had the impression he thought he had found something he could hook his star on in America, however not being able to look at him longer than five minutes, I didn't watch the whole thing.

Seeing tragedy after tragedy unfold, I have the sneaky feeling that the NRA crowd are secretly delighted to have an excuse to buy another gun, to convert others to the religion of guns and accumulate more points on their Bushmaster Man Card.

I fear the good guys vs. evil and it requiring greater violence to defeat violence, or anything one disagrees with mindset, as licensed in the 2nd Amendment, has passed the point of no return.
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  #738  
Old 25.12.2012, 09:53
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Re: Further developments in the shootings in USA

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...watching that show fleetingly, I had the impression he thought he had found something he could hook his star on in America, however not being able to look at him longer than five minutes, I didn't watch the whole thing.

Seeing tragedy after tragedy unfold, I have the sneaky feeling that the NRA crowd are secretly delighted to have an excuse to buy another gun, to convert others to the religion of guns and accumulate more points on their Bushmaster Man Card.

I fear the good guys vs. evil and it requiring greater violence to defeat violence, or anything one disagrees with mindset, as licensed in the 2nd Amendment, has passed the point of no return.
I agree with you. In fact, the NRA is a militia themselves. With over 1 million members, those who are weak enough will come to duty if the NRA calls them too. It's a pity really...
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  #739  
Old 25.12.2012, 10:14
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Re: Further developments in the shootings in USA

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I propose a counter-petition to stop him coming back
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  #740  
Old 25.12.2012, 10:36
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Re: Further developments in the shootings in USA

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According to its website, the NRA has 4.3 million members,
Reckon that's enough to start a new Civil War?
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