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  #921  
Old 09.01.2013, 14:42
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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So what is the answer to the question as to why ten times the amount of people die in hospitals due to hospital acquired infections than to guns? Piers didn't have an answer for it as he wouldn't answer any of Alex's questions. Does anyone know?
Greater exposure and indiscriminate action of bugs.

It is irrelevant to the topic of gun ownership.
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  #922  
Old 09.01.2013, 14:45
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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Greater exposure and indiscriminate action of bugs.

It is irrelevant to the topic of gun ownership.
He's probably an anti-vaccine, anti-Pharma nut too. They also toss in totally nonsensical and irrelevant arguments and analogies to throw off the other party, and keep themselves talking.
Talking of conspiracy theories, I've even seen a video claiming the Newton shootings were a hoax to justify further gun control. Beggars belief.
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  #923  
Old 09.01.2013, 14:54
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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Greater exposure and indiscriminate action of bugs.

It is irrelevant to the topic of gun ownership.
Ok. But isn't it a seemingly bigger impact on society then guns then and thus something that may be worth of higher priority?

I am not pro gun or anything like that, but would seem fixing the infrastructure as to where people are supposed to be treated but are dying unnecessarily would be a worthy target no?

Also, what is the defence on the claim that where gun control has been brought in, crime levels have gone up? And more notably, the major massacres tend to occur in states with stricter gun controls?
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  #924  
Old 09.01.2013, 15:01
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Ok. But isn't it a seemingly bigger impact on society then guns then and thus something that may be worth of higher priority?

I am not pro gun or anything like that, but would seem fixing the infrastructure as to where people are supposed to be treated but are dying unnecessarily would be a worthy target no?

Also, what is the defence on the claim that where gun control has been brought in, crime levels have gone up? And more notably, the major massacres tend to occur in states with stricter gun controls?
A. May not be true
B. It isnt an "either/or"
C. Superbugs are smarter than rednecks so harder to defeat
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  #925  
Old 09.01.2013, 15:10
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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Ok. But isn't it a seemingly bigger impact on society then guns then and thus something that may be worth of higher priority?

I am not pro gun or anything like that, but would seem fixing the infrastructure as to where people are supposed to be treated but are dying unnecessarily would be a worthy target no?

Also, what is the defence on the claim that where gun control has been brought in, crime levels have gone up? And more notably, the major massacres tend to occur in states with stricter gun controls?
Nothing in the Bill of Rights about it. Now if it was stated in black and white that it was a God given, unalienable right to access proper healthcare and you tried to take it away from them they'd fight tooth and nail for it. Just because it's common sense - no way.

Well, iirc the guy in Newtown got his guns from his mother, who presumably purchased them legally after meeting the gun control requirements. If she didn't keep them locked away or he got access to the key, gun control laws won't make any difference. And yes, crime levels can go up when gun control laws have been bought in, but it just means the criminals are getting their illegal guns from another state. Heck, they could probably buy them legally in a state if they wanted to and then use them in another. I would guess there are still a few states that don't have any regulations whatsoever regarding buying guns, except that you have the money to buy them with.
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  #926  
Old 09.01.2013, 15:15
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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A. May not be true
B. It isnt an "either/or"
C. Superbugs are smarter than rednecks so harder to defeat
What may not be true? That more people die in hospital from super infections then guns? Many statistics show it very much is true, and of course, that is just one area where unnecessary death tolls are higher than guns.

Quite right, it is not an either/or argument, but pro gun lobbyists, not that I am one, have a right to raise the questions that they want answers too right? There is always a high profile incident that focuses spot light on a particular issue which can sometimes distort the various other issues that are taking a heavier toll, they should be debated too. I guess it's case of balancing, i.e. whether lives lossed balance with the deemed benefit of the action, such as blowing up a town and killing thousands is worth it if it catches a serious bad man. I find decision making like that difficult.

Well yes, bacteria resistance to antibiotics is perhaps a bigger problem than many of us realise or take seriously enough at the moment. Perhaps why priority should be higher than stopping the 11,000 killed each year, to help prevent the 100s of thousands that will die from this issue thats evolving. Or maybe avoidance is the point
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  #927  
Old 09.01.2013, 15:21
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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Nothing in the Bill of Rights about it. Now if it was stated in black and white that it was a God given, unalienable right to access proper healthcare and you tried to take it away from them they'd fight tooth and nail for it. Just because it's common sense - no way.

Well, iirc the guy in Newtown got his guns from his mother, who presumably purchased them legally after meeting the gun control requirements. If she didn't keep them locked away or he got access to the key, gun control laws won't make any difference. And yes, crime levels can go up when gun control laws have been bought in, but it just means the criminals are getting their illegal guns from another state. Heck, they could probably buy them legally in a state if they wanted to and then use them in another. I would guess there are still a few states that don't have any regulations whatsoever regarding buying guns, except that you have the money to buy them with.
Sorry, but i dont understand what the first paragraph is in response to or what you are trying to say.

Re: the bold part. Well, that may be true in part, but it doesn't provide answers for increased muggings, house break in and entry, knife and / or other not bullet firing weapon crime etc etc, so cant really make a blanket statement like that as a true defence.
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  #928  
Old 09.01.2013, 15:22
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

Girl shoots brother in the head.
What's really scary is their facebook pages.
http://www.facebook.com/3eNfErMa1/photos
http://www.facebook.com/manny.locc.5/photos_stream

The girl got more grief for pointing her gun at a puppy than she did for pointing her gun at her brother's head.
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  #929  
Old 09.01.2013, 15:38
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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So what is the answer to the question as to why ten times the amount of people die in hospitals due to hospital acquired infections than to guns? Piers didn't have an answer for it as he wouldn't answer any of Alex's questions. Does anyone know?
there are generally between 30-35,000 gun deaths each year in the US, and most estimates put the total number of hospital deaths due to "error" at just south of 100,000 per year. of course, with those hospital deaths by "error", it is very difficult to tell how many deaths are completely unrelated to the underlying diseases (for example, how would you ever know if an 80 year old man with heart disease died during a quadruple bypass surgery because of error versus underlying condition?).

in other words, it's a silly question, although a generally typical diversionary tactic.
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  #930  
Old 09.01.2013, 15:53
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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there are generally between 30-35,000 gun deaths each year in the US, and most estimates put the total number of hospital deaths due to "error" at just south of 100,000 per year. of course, with those hospital deaths by "error", it is very difficult to tell how many deaths are completely unrelated to the underlying diseases (for example, how would you ever know if an 80 year old man with heart disease died during a quadruple bypass surgery because of error versus underlying condition?).

in other words, it's a silly question, although a generally typical diversionary tactic.
I have to disagree. Taking your point into consideration I think the rise in super infections is killing equally as many people as guns, likely a lot more if we consider the 80 year old men and women with underlying issues are a small percentage to those known to contract super infections and have no real serious issues, is not a silly question but a serious problem.

We know it is because of resistance to drugs, but the figures are rising. Gun toll deaths remain relatively consistent, comparable to car deaths.
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  #931  
Old 09.01.2013, 15:54
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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You've probably seen this...
Jesus, what a gibbering imbecile. (and i don't mean Piers Moron, for once)
I doubt he even believes much of what he says - just another one of those gobshite shock jocks no doubt, who are basically just a big act..."carnival barkers" as a Obama said about Trump.

Actually, he's a great advertisement for gun control, to be honest
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  #932  
Old 09.01.2013, 15:59
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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What may not be true? That more people die in hospital from super infections then guns? Many statistics show it very much is true, and of course, that is just one area where unnecessary death tolls are higher than guns.
This is absolutely irrelevant.

The analogy of guns to infectious diseases is the equivalent of every gun owner getting their gun out and randomly shooting non-stop. And I mean non-stop.

If you were to then see how many deaths there are, I believe you would find that guns hold sway.

Comparing death rates from infections is not a valid comparison to death rates from violent crime involving guns. It isn't even apples and pears - if you want to use that analogy the fruit isn't even in the same basket.

I was going to make the comparisons for you, but the premise that the two can be compared is so flawed that it there is no point. Why not compare violent gun deaths to the number of people killed:
1) on speed boats
2) crossing the road
3) while lighting their farts

What you can do is compare the absolute numbers, but that's it. The causes are completed non-comparable.

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Quite right, it is not an either/or argument, but pro gun lobbyists, not that I am one, have a right to raise the questions that they want answers too right? There is always a high profile incident that focuses spot light on a particular issue which can sometimes distort the various other issues that are taking a heavier toll, they should be debated too. I guess it's case of balancing, i.e. whether lives lossed balance with the deemed benefit of the action, such as blowing up a town and killing thousands is worth it if it catches a serious bad man. I find decision making like that difficult.
Absolutely. But that is not what they (or you are doing). You are putting up non sequetur or straw man arguments that are irrelevant to the topic being discussed... unless the super bugs are part of the conspiracy too.

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Well yes, bacteria resistance to antibiotics is perhaps a bigger problem than many of us realise or take seriously enough at the moment. Perhaps why priority should be higher than stopping the 11,000 killed each year, to help prevent the 100s of thousands that will die from this issue thats evolving. Or maybe avoidance is the point
What makes you think this is not being researched?

Companies spend millions researching this, as viral and bacteria-borne illnesses could easily cause pandemics, as per the Spanish flu of 1918. But, again, that is not something that joe public can do much about other than maintain good hygiene, but even then that is not a guarantee. In the meantime, hospitals will focus efforts on hygiene, while the debate about guns can remain "on topic".
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  #933  
Old 09.01.2013, 16:11
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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This is absolutely irrelevant.

The analogy of guns to infectious diseases is the equivalent of every gun owner getting their gun out and randomly shooting non-stop. And I mean non-stop.

If you were to then see how many deaths there are, I believe you would find that guns hold sway.

Comparing death rates from infections is not a valid comparison to death rates from violent crime involving guns. It isn't even apples and pears - if you want to use that analogy the fruit isn't even in the same basket.

I was going to make the comparisons for you, but the premise that the two can be compared is so flawed that it there is no point. Why not compare violent gun deaths to the number of people killed:
1) on speed boats
2) crossing the road
3) while lighting their farts

What you can do is compare the absolute numbers, but that's it. The causes are completed non-comparable.



Absolutely. But that is not what they (or you are doing). You are putting up non sequetur or straw man arguments that are irrelevant to the topic being discussed... unless the super bugs are part of the conspiracy too.



What makes you think this is not being researched?

Companies spend millions researching this, as viral and bacteria-borne illnesses could easily cause pandemics, as per the Spanish flu of 1918. But, again, that is not something that joe public can do much about other than maintain good hygiene, but even then that is not a guarantee. In the meantime, hospitals will focus efforts on hygiene, while the debate about guns can remain "on topic".
Ok, if your opinion that 100,000's of deaths is irrelevant to social well being than thats fine.

What about violent crime cases spiraling in the UK when gun controls got tighter?

Or the fact about the drop in violence in the US where people have more guns? But an increase where gun controls have been tightened in some states?
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  #934  
Old 09.01.2013, 16:15
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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This is absolutely irrelevant.

Why not compare violent gun deaths to the number of people killed:

3) while lighting their farts
OMG - you can die from that? What kind of precautions should I be taking? Next time I'll have my mother-in-law standing by with an extinguisher. Would a water one do, or would it require CO2?
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Old 09.01.2013, 16:26
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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Ok, if your opinion that 100,000's of deaths is irrelevant to social well being than thats fine.
Irrelevant in the context of the gun-control discussion. Anyway, the annual figure for deaths attributed to, or contributed by, nosocomial infections in the US is 99 000, not "100 000s".

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What about violent crime cases spiraling in the UK when gun controls got tighter?
Granted, gun-related murders increased in the immediate years following the post-Dunblan legislation, but have seen a steady decrease over the last decade or so.
The level of gun-related murder in the UK is still one of the lowest in the world.

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Or the fact about the drop in violence in the US where people have more guns? But an increase where gun controls have been tightened in some states?
I've heard this quoted before, but would like to see some hard evidence.
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Old 09.01.2013, 16:30
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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Ok, if your opinion that 100,000's of deaths is irrelevant to social well being than thats fine.

What about violent crime cases spiraling in the UK when gun controls got tighter?

Or the fact about the drop in violence in the US where people have more guns? But an increase where gun controls have been tightened in some states?
Stop twisting his words. He never said superbug deaths are irrelevant. The point is, we are doing all we can to stop superbugs, but the truth is we dont know how to stop them yet. Guns on the otherhand, can be stopped. Or would you prefer not to do anything until 30,000 becomes 100,000?

Violent Crime and gun crime are two vastly different things.

Violent crime has a low mortality rate (getting punched by a drunk reveller is technically a violent crime, but in no way comparable to gun crime). Gun crime has a much higher mortality rate. Its difficult to beat someone to death, much easier to shoot them in the leg and let them bleed out.

Yet another tactic from the pro-gun lobby.
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Old 09.01.2013, 16:34
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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Irrelevant in the context of the gun-control discussion. Anyway, the annual figure for deaths attributed to, or contributed by, nosocomial infections in the US is 99 000, not "100 000s".



Granted, gun-related murders increased in the immediate years following the post-Dunblan legislation, but have seen a steady decrease over the last decade or so.
The level of gun-related murder in the UK is still one of the lowest in the world.



I've heard this quoted before, but would like to see some hard evidence.
Sorry, I was implying non gun related i.e. knife crime
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  #938  
Old 09.01.2013, 16:37
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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Ok, if your opinion that 100,000's of deaths is irrelevant to social well being than thats fine.
Where, exactly, did I say that?
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  #939  
Old 09.01.2013, 16:38
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

This place is so frequented by anti-gun nuts why not rename it hoplophobes forum?
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  #940  
Old 09.01.2013, 16:39
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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Stop twisting his words. He never said superbug deaths are irrelevant. The point is, we are doing all we can to stop superbugs, but the truth is we dont know how to stop them yet. Guns on the otherhand, can be stopped. Or would you prefer not to do anything until 30,000 becomes 100,000?

Violent Crime and gun crime are two vastly different things.

Violent crime has a low mortality rate (getting punched by a drunk reveller is technically a violent crime, but in no way comparable to gun crime). Gun crime has a much higher mortality rate. Its difficult to beat someone to death, much easier to shoot them in the leg and let them bleed out.

Yet another tactic from the pro-gun lobby.
There is nothing what so ever to suggest gun crime or deaths from gun crime is increasing in fact it has gone down. The severity of innocent attacks has got worse, yes, and there always seems to be a high profile case each year, but the number of deaths is consistent each year and is in the majority between gang related disputes which would likely occur even with a total ban on guns as they will obtain the weapons anyway.

Should i be a would be robber, I fancy my chances more in the UK than in the US, where I would likely be killed.

Again, I am not pro guns, but, I am pro defending your rights to defend yourself and your property. If the criminal will have a gun, I want one too, I imagine that is the mindset.
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