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  #961  
Old 09.01.2013, 18:36
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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How so?

You've asked questions, made statements and then when I reply to them, you don't like the answers and revert to insults.





Oh, you mean that other ad hominem?
I hate being a parrot, but you seem to forget what you post. Maybe you are a fish. Fish and parrots don't get along do they?

Revert to pm's if you want back to back chatter please.

But because you make me feel warm and fuzzy inside with pity, I will help you out
Stupid woman ruined my day and dog walk!
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  #962  
Old 09.01.2013, 20:45
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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You think the police force are able to get to your house, shoot and disarm the would be robber, before your family are hurt?

Its a very nice idea.
Missed the point again. Or are you casually ignoring it?

The fact that you would rather shoot the robber, rather then tackle the causes speaks volumes. That's what the US should be aiming for. Not arming every single man woman and child three times over.

You buy a revolver to defend you against robbers, the robber buys a pistol.
You buy a pistol, the robber buys an uzi.
you buy an uzi, the robber buys a SMG.
You buy an SMG, the robber buys an assault rifle...
where does it end? is it sustainable?
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  #963  
Old 09.01.2013, 20:48
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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Missed the point again. Or are you casually ignoring it?

The fact that you would rather shoot the robber, rather then tackle the causes speaks volumes. That's what the US should be aiming for. Not arming every single man woman and child three times over.

You buy a revolver to defend you against robbers, the robber buys a pistol.
You buy a pistol, the robber buys an uzi.
you buy an uzi, the robber buys a SMG.
You buy an SMG, the robber buys an assault rifle...
where does it end? is it sustainable?
Oh sorry, I didn't realise you couldnt grasp that utopia is impossible.

I wouldnt rather shoot the robber. I would rather tie him up and let my dog have fun with him. Then maybe do some nasty things to him. I am a lot nastier than a gun if I want to be.
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  #964  
Old 09.01.2013, 20:54
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Re: Impression of U.S. gun owners

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This is biggest heap of B.S I have ever seen. So your saying we need lock up even more drug users and spend even more money on the war on drugs?
Can you not see that the war on drugs is a complete failure?
Are you seriously suggesting MORE enforcement?

Seriously. Get real.

Leagalize it, treat addiction as an illness and not a crime. Portugual did it and cut their addiction in half.
No. but thanks for jumping to the wrong conclusion, and dismissing what I've said without evidence.

I'm saying lock up the dealers and treat the addicts.
Yes, spend some money on your drug problem, where it is needed. The money you save having not to deal with all the dead people (53% of who may even pay some tax) will more then pay dividends. And less schoolchildren die.

Enforcement comes in against the cartels (which you so passionately blame for your rampant gun violence). Get tough with them, and destroy their infrastructures and inhibit their MOs.

Make better policies regarding your addicts, the end users. give them the treatment they need.

I like the fact you start by calling my argument bullshit, but then talk about legalising it, treating it, and solving the problem through...law enforcement and better policy making. 10/10 for consistency.
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  #965  
Old 09.01.2013, 22:00
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Re: Impression of U.S. gun owners

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not allowing jonny yankee to go and buy an assault rifle designed to fire 900 bullets a minute and kill everything in its path at a gun convention.
Just a technical note: proper machine guns (fully-automatic guns that continuously fire for as long as the trigger is depressed or guns that fire multi-shot bursts with one pull of the trigger), including "assault rifles", have been heavily regulated in the US since 1934 and are not available for general retail sale. There are a small number still on the market, but the cost is exceptionally high (often in the tens of thousands of dollars) and there is substantial legal hurdles to buying them. They are almost exclusively owned by wealthy collectors. No legally-owned machine gun has been used in crime in decades.

There are several civilian-legal firearms that are based on military design (the civilian-legal AR-15 rifle is based on the M16 design, for example) but they are functionally identical to other civilian-legal firearms in that they are semi-auto only: they fire one (and only one) shot when the trigger is pulled. They may look like a military firearm, but the resemblance is entirely cosmetic and unrelated to their function -- they function exactly the same as other common sporting firearms.

None of them can fire 900 rounds per minute and, even in the event they could, they are not designed for such use and would almost certainly malfunction or catch on fire due to overheating.

These types of guns are extremely common for sport, recreation, and competitive shooting, and their use in hunting is increasing. They tend to be lightweight, rugged, reliable, accurate, and can be readily customized by the end user: for example, many "traditional" hunting rifles have a fixed stock that cannot be adjusted. AR-15s usually come with an adjustable stock a tall or short person can easily adjust it to their needs, or someone can adjust it if they are shooting standing, sitting, or lying prone. Similarly, it difficult and expensive to change calibers on a "traditional" rifle, yet the user can change calibers on a AR-15 in a matter of minutes. It's possible to have a .22LR barrel for inexpensive target shooting and a .308 caliber barrel for deer hunting and to swap them out when needed.

Due to their adaptability and suitability for a wide range of shooting sports, they're the most common type of firearm being bought and used in the US: as a personal example, when I had taken some training courses several years ago, over 90% of the students in the course had these types of firearms. (Just to be different, I took a World War II-era M1 Garand to the course.)

They're also not inexpensive, they often cost more than $1,000 each. They are used very rarely in crimes: out of all the homicides committed with firearms in the US in 2011, 3.7% were committed with rifles of any kind and the number and rate of homicides committed with rifles has been decreasing for years. Far more crimes are committed with cheap, essentially-disposable handguns in connection with drug trafficking and gang-related violence.

There's a lot of misconceptions about these types of guns, mostly due to their appearance (many people think that because they look like their military cousins they function the same, though this is not the case), but they are functionally identical to other common firearms.

In short: these types of rifles are rarely used in crime and they're extremely commonly used by law-abiding people for legitimate purposes.

I hope this helps clear things up a bit.

As an aside, I was pleased to see that this discussion thread has remained civil. Gun-related political discussions can often get emotional, so I'm please to see that EFers are made of more polite stuff. Well done!

Last edited by heypete; 09.01.2013 at 22:02. Reason: Changed "2012" to "2011" in crime statistic link. I mistakenly typed the wrong year in the post.
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  #966  
Old 09.01.2013, 23:49
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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Missed the point again. Or are you casually ignoring it?

The fact that you would rather shoot the robber, rather then tackle the causes speaks volumes. That's what the US should be aiming for. Not arming every single man woman and child three times over.

You buy a revolver to defend you against robbers, the robber buys a pistol.
You buy a pistol, the robber buys an uzi.
you buy an uzi, the robber buys a SMG.
You buy an SMG, the robber buys an assault rifle...
where does it end? is it sustainable?
House breakers in general are opportunists. They will always go for the easiest heist. If they fear that the householder may also be armed they'll go elsewhere - end of. It's not an arms race. The low number of burglaries in the US compared with the UK bears this out. People in the UK are injured or worse by drugged out burglars that come armed with knives and often in numbers of twos or threes. They know that they will have the advantage. Put away your notions of the burly masked man in a striped shirt with 'swag' written on it, these guys are desperate scum. I dare you to tell me that you'd be prepared to go downstairs in the early hours and debate gun control unless you had an edge to the argument. Get real. However, nice to see you know the difference between a revolver and a pistol.
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  #967  
Old 10.01.2013, 04:01
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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Piers on good form in that video. Although he can be smarmy and smug on occasion, here he played it very well but remaining calm.
Agreed. I can't stand the guy, but in comparison with that ranting nutjob, he actually seemed reasonable.
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  #968  
Old 10.01.2013, 04:41
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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House breakers in general are opportunists. They will always go for the easiest heist. If they fear that the householder may also be armed they'll go elsewhere - end of. It's not an arms race. The low number of burglaries in the US compared with the UK bears this out. People in the UK are injured or worse by drugged out burglars that come armed with knives and often in numbers of twos or threes. They know that they will have the advantage. Put away your notions of the burly masked man in a striped shirt with 'swag' written on it, these guys are desperate scum. I dare you to tell me that you'd be prepared to go downstairs in the early hours and debate gun control unless you had an edge to the argument. Get real. However, nice to see you know the difference between a revolver and a pistol.
You, or some other gun enthusiast here, have cited the US/UK burglary comparison argument before. You are suggesting that the different gun cultures in these two nations explains the higher per-capita incidence of burglary in the UK?

With respect, that is so wrong. And I speak as someone who spent 4 years, back in my civil service days, analysing burglary stats and patterns (and other petty crime).

Burglary is more common in the UK for a number of reasons, but chiefly because our small island is congested and filled with dense conurbations comprising lines of back-to-back houses. A typical UK burglar will operate on foot, and simply wall around the streets without arousing any suspicion until an opportunity is spotted. In the US, demographics and urban design are totally different. There are great swathes of the US in which a stranger simply walking around (rather than driving) would itself be seen as somewhat weird and suspicious. In a society based so heavily on the car, relatively few people seem to walk anywhere. A US burglar has to drive, which creates all sorts of risks, and presupposes that someone who wants to burgle already has enough wealth to own a car.

The 'country house' burglary, or the high-value burglaries in wealthy outer suburbs of the big cities ARE car-related, and actually have lot in common with US burglary modus operandi and trends. But if we compare US and UK burglaries of this type you will find that the US is way out in front.

As you rightly say, more than 80% of UK burglaries are low value, opportunist thefts in densely populated inner city areas, and of these, it is believed that more than 75% are drug-related, and carried out by non-professional burglars. Nothing to be proud of, for sure, but the high incidence of poor people thieving the houses of other poor people for small portable items that can be easily resold, has little to do with gun ownership. Christ knows what the drug-addled loons would do if it was OK for them to walk around with a gun in their pocket. That's the bit of the argument you seem to leave out.
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  #969  
Old 10.01.2013, 05:38
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

Nothing surprises me anymore from the far right Republican wingnuts. They are certifiably crazy, and often paranoid like this idiot Jones.
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  #970  
Old 10.01.2013, 07:56
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

According to this most buglaries happen when no one is home, up to 70% of home robberies occur when the home owner is gone. So a gun really wouldn't come into the equation.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/vdhb.pdf
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  #971  
Old 10.01.2013, 10:05
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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It comes across as a little arrogant to think you can speak for the whole of Europe on this subject. ...
That's a shame. I was going for very arrogant.

Of course, by Europeans, I mean Europeans who haven't been brainwashed by US propaganda.
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  #972  
Old 10.01.2013, 10:31
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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According to this most buglaries happen when no one is home, up to 70% of home robberies occur when the home owner is gone. So a gun really wouldn't come into the equation.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/vdhb.pdf
I was about to make the same point. Additionally, most burglaries that occur when there is someone at home target the very elderly or infirm, so again, gun ownership is probably a moot point.
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  #973  
Old 10.01.2013, 11:14
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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House breakers in general are opportunists. They will always go for the easiest heist. If they fear that the householder may also be armed they'll go elsewhere - end of. It's not an arms race. The low number of burglaries in the US compared with the UK bears this out. People in the UK are injured or worse by drugged out burglars that come armed with knives and often in numbers of twos or threes. They know that they will have the advantage. Put away your notions of the burly masked man in a striped shirt with 'swag' written on it, these guys are desperate scum. I dare you to tell me that you'd be prepared to go downstairs in the early hours and debate gun control unless you had an edge to the argument. Get real. However, nice to see you know the difference between a revolver and a pistol.
Again, is this sustainable? isnt it more efective to get them off the street so houses dont get burgled to begin with? The US mentality seems to appear as though every gun-toting american is absolutely convinced 100% that his house will be frequented by robbers, and so they should ar themselves in preperation.

And even if your house is targeted, there are better measures then guns. If, as you say, burglars are opportunists, surely a visible alarm system is a better deterrent then the possibility that the homeowner may be packing? Would this not then deter a robber, even when you're not in? Or is the problem simply that an alarm system emasculates you in a way that a gun doesnt?

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Oh sorry, I didn't realise you couldnt grasp that utopia is impossible.

I wouldnt rather shoot the robber. I would rather tie him up and let my dog have fun with him. Then maybe do some nasty things to him. I am a lot nastier than a gun if I want to be.
Utopia may well be impossible, but thats not really relevant here. Try and maintain the topic, rather then indulging in pointless reductio ad absurdum.

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Fixed that for you.

So, when will cars be banned? ....... or, irrelevant?
Cars are a necessity. People cannot do without them. The economy cannot do without them. They do much more good then bad. Guns are not a necessity. Even less so, are guns designed to kill as much as possible, as quickly as possible (as opposed to personal protection) in the hands of morons.
Do you see the difference? Or do you choose not to?

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You think the police force are able to get to your house, shoot and disarm the would be robber, before your family are hurt?

Its a very nice idea.
Again, why the focus on shooting the robber? Most robberies occur because the robber wants to steal an object of value, to resell. Not because he wants to come charging up the stairs like a madman and shoot everything with a pulse. You talk as though every single burglar on the planet has murderous intent. This is simply ridiculous, though i suppose it is evidence of the effectiveness of the gun marketing industry.

Incidentally, back in the UK, i was once in this situation. The police got to my house in 4 minutes (despite being 20 minutes away with regular traffic). The burglar, on seeing the police realised he was buggered and surrendered. No shootout, no blood, no death. This is a better solution, i think, then me charging down with an uzi, shooting up the place, and possibly getting shot to pieces in the process.

Last edited by J2488; 10.01.2013 at 11:24.
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  #974  
Old 10.01.2013, 11:34
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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Again, is this sustainable? isnt it more efective to get them off the street so houses dont get burgled to begin with? The US mentality seems to appear as though every gun-toting american is absolutely convinced 100% that his house will be frequented by robbers, and so they should ar themselves in preperation.

And even if your house is targeted, there are better measures then guns. If, as you say, burglars are opportunists, surely a visible alarm system is a better deterrent then the possibility that the homeowner may be packing? Would this not then deter a robber, even when you're not in? Or is the problem simply that an alarm system emasculates you in a way that a gun doesnt?



Utopia may well be impossible, but thats not really relevant here. Try and maintain the topic, rather then indulging in pointless reductio ad absurdum.



Cars are a necessity. People cannot do without them. The economy cannot do without them. They do much more good then bad. Guns are not a necessity. Even less so, are guns designed to kill as much as possible, as quickly as possible (as opposed to personal protection) in the hands of morons.
Do you see the difference? Or do you choose not to?



Again, why the focus on shooting the robber? Most robberies occur because the robber wants to steal an object of value, to resell. Not because he wants to come charging up the stairs like a madman and shoot everything with a pulse. You talk as though every single burglar on the planet has murderous intent. This is simply ridiculous, though i suppose it is evidence of the effectiveness of the gun marketing industry.

Incidentally, back in the UK, i was once in this situation. The police got to my house in 4 minutes (despite being 20 minutes away with regular traffic). The burglar, on seeing the police realised he was buggered and surrendered. No shootout, no blood, no death. This is a better solution, i think, then me charging down with an uzi, shooting up the place, and possibly getting shot to pieces in the process.
So all police can reach scene of crime in 4 minutes. Thats good.

And police/government can just go and get all the criminals of the streets.

And then they can just go get all the guns of the streets.

The police are very good by all accounts. Incidentally, they carry guns too. We should probably ban their guns as that would just be hypocritical..

I didnt realise how easy it was actually now you say it. (note earlier point on Utopia, not as easy as you make out was my point).

So, what we will do, bit like in the UK, is call an amnesty, everyone will hand their guns in, and then we will go round and sweep up all criminals and then there are no more of them, and then theres no more crime and death.

Jeez, why did no one think of this before.

I wont even discuss the ridiculousness of cars a necessity and people and economies cant do without them.
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  #975  
Old 10.01.2013, 11:52
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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So all police can reach scene of crime in 4 minutes. Thats good.

And police/government can just go and get all the criminals of the streets.

And then they can just go get all the guns of the streets.

The police are very good by all accounts. Incidentally, they carry guns too. We should probably ban their guns as that would just be hypocritical..
Not in Britain they don't... see my earlier post.
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  #976  
Old 10.01.2013, 11:59
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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Ok, if your opinion that 100,000's of deaths is irrelevant to social well being than thats fine.

What about violent crime cases spiraling in the UK when gun controls got tighter?

Or the fact about the drop in violence in the US where people have more guns? But an increase where gun controls have been tightened in some states?
personally i believe those facts are coincidental and have no causal relationship whatsoever.

gun massacres can and do happen anywhere.

there tends to be more crime in places with larger populations.
there tend to be more firearms per household in rural areas with smaller populations, which in turn have less crime.

so the argument "more gun controle=more crime" is to me not conclusive at all, its incedental. i would think things like unemployment rates would be correlated to crime than gun ownership.

On a personal note, i have a gunsafe full of old historical rifles at my home in the US. I was very surprised how easy it is to get very well armed in the US when i started collecting them as an adult (i was not raised in a house which owned guns). It seems that there's more process and friction in getting a motorcycle license than there is to own firearms.

the NRA "pro 2nd amendment" movement is led by these mouth breathing conspiracy touting monkeyers who make a mockery of owning guns for sport with their absurd assertions of liberty and appeal to the national myths of rugged individualism of the frontiersman or the minute man militia soldier of the Revolution. This is all Bullshit.

There is no way guns will ever be banned in the US, or any kind of real comprehensive change be realized. For one, it IS in the constitution to own them, and the 2010 Supreme court ruling strengthened the "pro gun" interpretation of the 2nd amendment. Secondly, too many people love em too much.

This cartoon needs to always be posted in these threads:
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  #977  
Old 10.01.2013, 12:02
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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So all police can reach scene of crime in 4 minutes. Thats good.

And police/government can just go and get all the criminals of the streets.

And then they can just go get all the guns of the streets.

The police are very good by all accounts. Incidentally, they carry guns too. We should probably ban their guns as that would just be hypocritical..

I didnt realise how easy it was actually now you say it. (note earlier point on Utopia, not as easy as you make out was my point).

So, what we will do, bit like in the UK, is call an amnesty, everyone will hand their guns in, and then we will go round and sweep up all criminals and then there are no more of them, and then theres no more crime and death.

Jeez, why did no one think of this before.

I wont even discuss the ridiculousness of cars a necessity and people and economies cant do without them.
More reductio ad absurdum. Really?

You may not be American (based on your language and your profile, i doubt this anyway), but your outlook most certainly is.

In your whole glut of verbal diarrhea, you have made not one salient point about gun control. The only point you make is that you think cars are not a necessity for people, though you have provided no justification for this, nor any reason at all.

And the fact that you dismiss it because it isnt easy seems very...american. Well, nothing in life worth having comes easy.

Tougher controls for guns in the US would be hard. But is possible.
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Old 10.01.2013, 12:05
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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Not in Britain they don't... see my earlier post.
I am quite aware of that, being English and having a brother in the met.

They do have guns when they need them however, just dont carry them on regular beat like US police do.

They still find plenty of guns on criminals though. Alas, no ban ever rids them from the streets.
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  #979  
Old 10.01.2013, 12:12
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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More reductio ad absurdum. Really?

You may not be American (based on your language and your profile, i doubt this anyway), but your outlook most certainly is.

In your whole glut of verbal diarrhea, you have made not one salient point. Apart from the fact you think cars are not a necessity for people, though you have provided no justification for this, nor any reason at all.

And the fact that you dismiss it because it isnt easy seems very...american. Well, nothing in life worth having comes easy.

Tougher controls for guns in the US would be hard. But is possible.
My outlook is not american at all, I am just able and willing to read between the lines unlike some. I will repeat again, I am not pro gun, but the issues are not so simple.

Sailent point, thats your opinion, my opinion of you is the same. Isn't life wonderful.

Ok, let me detail how comical your car point is. People managed to surive this world long before the car was made. Cars only good is getting from A to B. People can walk, ride bikes, skate, and use non motored vehicles, or use public transport such as trains and buses and trams that run on electricity, which would reduce deaths on the road, and more importantly the pollution which has in turn been and still is destroying the world and health of people in densely populated areas.

Cars only recently are starting to use electricity, but their use is minimal compared to petrol run cars, and even then, they would still kill as many people as guns, and all of them will be innocent. 75% of gun deaths are not innocent.
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Old 10.01.2013, 12:24
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

I've come to the opinion that the USA has peaked as a civilisation, and at least within the cities it is in an ever advancing process of decay, physically, mentally and socially. It has a accumulated an infrastructure that it cannot maintain as revenue that should be flowing to the government for social welfare is instead heading offshore, either by way of export deficits or corporate tax-avoidance. The social conscience is diminishing, and the disease will spread as a kind of global corporate feudalism takes hold. I'm not a lefty by any means, but the disappearance of the middle class is a scary future.

The result is often neo-plastic social anomalies, where the innocence are targeted by those frustrated by "the system". The access to firearms only serves to make the result of there frustrations more horrific.
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brown, darren wilson, ferguson, gun control, guns, kids, police, shooting range, usa




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