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  #981  
Old 10.01.2013, 12:47
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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My outlook is not american at all, I am just able and willing to read between the lines unlike some. I will repeat again, I am not pro gun, but the issues are not so simple.

Sailent point, thats your opinion, my opinion of you is the same. Isn't life wonderful.

Ok, let me detail how comical your car point is. People managed to surive this world long before the car was made. Cars only good is getting from A to B. People can walk, ride bikes, skate, and use non motored vehicles, or use public transport such as trains and buses and trams that run on electricity, which would reduce deaths on the road, and more importantly the pollution which has in turn been and still is destroying the world and health of people in densely populated areas.

Cars only recently are starting to use electricity, but their use is minimal compared to petrol run cars, and even then, they would still kill as many people as guns, and all of them will be innocent. 75% of gun deaths are not innocent.
75% gun deaths not innocent? proof? evidence?

Regarding the car point:
people managed to surive this world long before the car was made.
-yes, people also managed with straw huts houses before bricks went commercial. Times have changed since the early 20th century when the car, as you point out, was a luxury. Now, in the 21st century, cars are, more and more, a necessity.

Can you take luggage on a skateboard?
Can you use a bus/train/tram in the middle whenever you need?
Can you walk 20 miles to the supermarket?
Can you carry 6 shopping bags on a bicycle?

There is no form of transport as convenient and effective as a car. Public transport is good, but you are at the behest of the timtable, and countless other matters out of your control. What if there is no bus stop near your place of work? What if you work a night shift, and finish at 4am, when buses are not running?

And electric cars? where does the electricity come from? polluting power plants. And the components and processes required to make an electric car are far worse for the environment.

But i digress to prove where you went wrong. No one has said or implied that the gun control issue is a simple one. I even state, explicitly, it would be hard. But it is necassary. There is simply no reason why a 100-round magazine, or a several-hundred-rounds-a-minute assault rifle should be sold to unchecked people at gun conventions. Pistols or revolvers, for personal protection in the home, by suitably trained and qualified people, can be supported. There is a clear difference in preparing to kill people, and preparing for self-protection in a worst case scenario.

And regarding the lack of your salient point...it isnt an opinion, its simple fact. Look at it again, if you want.
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  #982  
Old 10.01.2013, 12:54
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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  #983  
Old 10.01.2013, 13:09
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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I've come to the opinion that the USA has peaked as a civilisation, and at least within the cities it is in an ever advancing process of decay, physically, mentally and socially. It has a accumulated an infrastructure that it cannot maintain as revenue that should be flowing to the government for social welfare is instead heading offshore, either by way of export deficits or corporate tax-avoidance. The social conscience is diminishing, and the disease will spread as a kind of global corporate feudalism takes hold. I'm not a lefty by any means, but the disappearance of the middle class is a scary future.

The result is often neo-plastic social anomalies, where the innocence are targeted by those frustrated by "the system". The access to firearms only serves to make the result of there frustrations more horrific.
which is why some of us who took german in high school have emigrated.
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  #984  
Old 10.01.2013, 13:14
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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I am quite aware of that, being English and having a brother in the met.

They do have guns when they need them however, just dont carry them on regular beat like US police do.

They still find plenty of guns on criminals though. Alas, no ban ever rids them from the streets.
Yes, and my cousin is an armed response officer. He has only been involved in one situation where he had to fire on someone, and luckily he had the stun-gun rather than the real gun so he didn't kill the offender. Something that, as a human, he still struggled with.

And Yes, they find plenty of guns, but they are not normally being fired at because the illegal gun owners don't worry that they are going to be shot and so HIDE their guns rather than carry and FIRE their guns.

So, my point is, that the fewer people that carry guns for self or civil defense, the less likely it is that guns will be used as an offensive weapon. The 'guns don't kill people, people do... he coulda attacked with a knife' argument is one that I find silly, because it's difficult to kill an innocent bystander with a knife, it's difficult to take out (kill) a room full of children with a knife, and it's easier to disarm someone with a knife.
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  #985  
Old 10.01.2013, 13:21
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

When tackling gang culture in the UK, there is an emphasis on trying to get kids not to carry knives for "protection", as it has been shown that if many kids carry knives, knifings increase. In fact, if you carry a knife, you're more likely to be a victim of a knifing.
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  #986  
Old 10.01.2013, 13:35
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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In fact, if you carry a knife, you're more likely to be a victim of a knifing.
This is pretty much true of any weapon. Also, whatever weapon you have, can be taken from you and used against you.

When I used to be in law enforcement, knives scared me a hell of a lot more than guns.
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  #987  
Old 10.01.2013, 13:56
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

Sorry but I don't want to sit up in bed with a knife in my chest. Why should I not have the right to protect myself against an armed intruder who is intent to rob or worse?
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  #988  
Old 10.01.2013, 14:03
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Re: Impression of U.S. gun owners

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Just a technical note: proper machine guns (fully-automatic guns that continuously fire for as long as the trigger is depressed or guns that fire multi-shot bursts with one pull of the trigger), including "assault rifles", have been heavily regulated in the US since 1934 and are not available for general retail sale.(1) There are a small number still on the market, but the cost is exceptionally high (often in the tens of thousands of dollars) and there is substantial legal hurdles to buying them(2). They are almost exclusively owned by wealthy collectors. No legally-owned machine gun has been used in crime in decades.

There are several civilian-legal firearms that are based on military design (the civilian-legal AR-15 rifle is based on the M16 design, for example) but they are functionally identical to other civilian-legal firearms in that they are semi-auto only: they fire one (and only one) shot when the trigger is pulled. They may look like a military firearm, but the resemblance is entirely cosmetic and unrelated to their function -- they function exactly the same as other common sporting firearms (3).

None of them can fire 900 rounds per minute and, even in the event they could, they are not designed for such use and would almost certainly malfunction or catch on fire due to overheating.(4)

These types of guns are extremely common for sport, recreation, and competitive shooting, and their use in hunting is increasing. They tend to be lightweight, rugged, reliable, accurate, and can be readily customized by the end user (5): for example, many "traditional" hunting rifles have a fixed stock that cannot be adjusted. AR-15s usually come with an adjustable stock a tall or short person can easily adjust it to their needs, or someone can adjust it if they are shooting standing, sitting, or lying prone. Similarly, it difficult and expensive to change calibers on a "traditional" rifle, yet the user can change calibers on a AR-15 in a matter of minutes. It's possible to have a .22LR barrel for inexpensive target shooting and a .308 caliber barrel for deer hunting and to swap them out when needed(6).

Due to their adaptability and suitability for a wide range of shooting sports, they're the most common type of firearm being bought and used in the US: as a personal example, when I had taken some training courses several years ago, over 90% of the students in the course had these types of firearms. (Just to be different, I took a World War II-era M1 Garand to the course.)

They're also not inexpensive, they often cost more than $1,000 each. They are used very rarely in crimes: out of all the homicides committed with firearms in the US in 2011, 3.7% were committed with rifles of any kind and the number and rate of homicides committed with rifles has been decreasing for years. Far more crimes are committed with cheap, essentially-disposable handguns in connection with drug trafficking and gang-related violence.

There's a lot of misconceptions about these types of guns, mostly due to their appearance (many people think that because they look like their military cousins they function the same, though this is not the case), but they are functionally identical to other common firearms.

In short: these types of rifles are rarely used in crime and they're extremely commonly used by law-abiding people for legitimate purposes.

I hope this helps clear things up a bit.

As an aside, I was pleased to see that this discussion thread has remained civil. Gun-related political discussions can often get emotional, so I'm please to see that EFers are made of more polite stuff. Well done!
You seem to be quite knowledgeable so perhaps you could help with a few things:
1) I know these were banned under a previous moratorium, but has that moratorium not expired now?
2) I know that these hurdles exist when buying from a licensed gun shop, but they can be bought from gun shows and conventions as 'private' purchases. Has this practice changed?
3) From personal experience i know that to modify a weapon to fire from fully automatic to semi automatic is a simple modification of the trigger mechanism assembly and possibly also the gas parts of the rifle. Are these weapons mechanically prevented from modifications in the other direction, which are also fairly easy?
4) 900 rounds a minute is impossible from any rifle, i concur, and firing that many would cause a blockage in the rifle. In practice, no one fires a rifle for one minute non stop (due to mag changes, and the fact that few targets are static for 60 seconds when being shot. But this is a cyclic industry measure. In practical terms, if (for example) a 30 round magazine is used, it is empty in 2 seconds. Thus, you fire 15 rounds a second, into a crowd, the outcome is horrific. Considering the innaccuracy of rifles fired at this speed, the gunman wouldnt really be accurate either. Even if he was aiming at one person, he would likely injure those around. I believe this lack of control is the argument against high capacity magazines and rapid fire weapons.
5) From reading, this supports point (3)
6) This also supports point (3). If these weapons are designed for easy and broad modification, surely the potential to increase their capability to kill en masse is also inreased? Are there safegaurds against this?

The problem is not that these weapons exist. Afer all, you can probably find a similar one in many swiss households. The problem is the laws around them allow them to be used easily for the wrong purpose.
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  #989  
Old 10.01.2013, 14:03
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

Too many assumptions, too much fantasy, too little reality, too little personal experience.
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  #990  
Old 10.01.2013, 14:07
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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Christ knows what the drug-addled loons would do if it was OK for them to walk around with a gun in their pocket. That's the bit of the argument you seem to leave out.
Sorry did I say it was OK for a drug addled loon to walk around with a gun in their pocket? You twist words sir.
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  #991  
Old 10.01.2013, 14:11
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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Sorry but I don't want to sit up in bed with a knife in my chest. Why should I not have the right to protect myself against an armed intruder who is intent to rob or worse?
If you're in bed asleep, how are you going to defend yourself against an intruder? Shoot him in your sleep?
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Old 10.01.2013, 14:12
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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Sorry did I say it was OK for a drug addled loon to walk around with a gun in their pocket? You twist words sir.
But the more widely available legal guns are, the greater the chance of a drug-addled loon illegally getting his hands on one.
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  #993  
Old 10.01.2013, 14:13
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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...Why should I not have the right to protect myself against an armed intruder who is intent to rob or worse?
In most countries, you do have the right. For example, in the UK, you are permitted to use reasonable force, even if it turns out to be lethal.

There was a move to change that to unreasonable force, I seem to recall. Is that law yet?

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hmm. Do I detect a vested interest.
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  #994  
Old 10.01.2013, 14:20
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

Wow, that guy needs to switch to decaf and take some deep breaths....as do some of the people here.
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  #995  
Old 10.01.2013, 14:28
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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Too many assumptions, too much fantasy, too little reality, too little personal experience.
Er..a word. What do you do for a living ?

I have spent 25 years nursing, including 7 yrs A&E in Manchester. During this time I had to deal with serious wounds inflicted on innocent members of the public including elderly residents living alone. In 2003 I had to put 26 stitches in a 14 yr old girl's leg when she went to help her father foil a burglar. I've had a police officer break down in desperation that she was not able to better protect a passerby attacked by a knife wielding moron as she was arresting him.

Assumption, fantasy, reality, experience. Don't come here with your snappy smug one liners thinking you've got the highground on this subject, get some experience in the subject we're debating before making such childish statements.
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  #996  
Old 10.01.2013, 14:32
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

All - I moved this to "Off Topic" as it stopped being about Switzerland about three posts in and became another (yet another) thread on gun control.

With apologies to the OP - it was in the right place when it was posted, but trying to find a new home for 98% of the posts rather than just move the whole thing....well, life's too short
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  #997  
Old 10.01.2013, 14:32
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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In most countries, you do have the right. For example, in the UK, you are permitted to use reasonable force, even if it turns out to be lethal.

There was a move to change that to unreasonable force, I seem to recall. Is that law yet?

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hmm. Do I detect a vested interest.
What's reasonable force against two or three scum armed with sharps? Yes I am interested in shooting and have been since age 14. I don't hide it. What's your point? Should I not take part in the forum as I have an interest?
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Old 10.01.2013, 14:36
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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Sorry but I don't want to sit up in bed with a knife in my chest. Why should I not have the right to protect myself against an armed intruder who is intent to rob or worse?

Chances are, if you had a knife in your chest, you wouldnt be sitting up in bed, surprised to find it there. How long did you say you were a nurse for?

And no one is saying you dont have the right. Of course you do. You're twisting our words to suggest we're saying the contrary.

Defending yourself against an armed intruder is entirely different to it being legal to stockpile weapons and ammunition in places where untrained, possibly unhinged, people can access them.
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Old 10.01.2013, 14:40
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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What's reasonable force against two or three scum armed with sharps? Yes I am interested in shooting and have been since age 14. I don't hide it. What's your point? Should I not take part in the forum as I have an interest?

Probably very different to reasonable force against a desperate opportunist.

But since you wish to prepare for every eventuality, you should probably contact the MOD about purchasing a Challenger Mk 2. After all, its quite feasible your would-be assailants have vehicles too, so you should buy one with even greater firepower.
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Old 10.01.2013, 14:41
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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So what is the answer to the question as to why ten times the amount of people die in hospitals due to hospital acquired infections than to guns? Piers didn't have an answer for it as he wouldn't answer any of Alex's questions. Does anyone know?
even more people die in traffic accidents... should we ban cars??

the claim about hospital deaths may or may not be true, but is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
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