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  #1001  
Old 10.01.2013, 14:43
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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Chances are, if you had a knife in your chest, you wouldnt be sitting up in bed, surprised to find it there. How long did you say you were a nurse for?

And no one is saying you dont have the right. Of course you do. You're twisting our words to suggest we're saying the contrary.

Defending yourself against an armed intruder is entirely different to it being legal to stockpile weapons and ammunition in places where untrained, possibly unhinged, people can access them.
Who's twisting words now then? As it happens you can be stabbed in the chest multiple times and live, the best thing the attacker could do would be to leave it there.

My point is that I personally prefer a gun about the place - end of.
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  #1002  
Old 10.01.2013, 14:49
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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Who's twisting words now then? As it happens you can be stabbed in the chest multiple times and live, the best thing the attacker could do would be to leave it there.

My point is that I personally prefer a gun about the place - end of.
There is a fine line between precaution and paranoia.....well, no actually for most people it's quite a thick line, but some like to narrow it down a lot.
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  #1003  
Old 10.01.2013, 14:49
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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Sorry did I say it was OK for a drug addled loon to walk around with a gun in their pocket? You twist words sir.
So people should have their mental health examined and gun licence renewed at least once a year? Or once a month?

Or perhaps everyday?

A mental breakdown can occur without due warning to others.

And lots of people take illegal substances (or misuse legal substances) without the knowledge of their friends and families.

You haven't really thought this through, have you?
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  #1004  
Old 10.01.2013, 14:54
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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Who's twisting words now then? As it happens you can be stabbed in the chest multiple times and live, the best thing the attacker could do would be to leave it there.

My point is that I personally prefer a gun about the place - end of.

Yes, you can, but dont you think when you're being stabbed repeatedly in the chest, you might just wake up?
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  #1005  
Old 10.01.2013, 15:38
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Re: Impression of U.S. gun owners

Good questions. I apologize in advance for the length of this posting. I hope people don't mind.

1. Yes. The federal ban existed between 1994-2004 and was allowed to expire because it didn't really have any significant effect on violent crime rates. Certain states (such as California) continue to have state-level bans.

2. All purchases from a federally-licensed gun dealer (for example, a gun shop) require a federal background check. Certain states have additional requirements, but the base level of background check is required when buying from a dealer. This applies even if the dealer is selling guns at a gun show.

That said, it's legal in most US states for a private person to give or sell their gun to another private person without going through a licensed dealer if (a) they are reasonably sure they're not a prohibited person (they cannot be a criminal, for example) and (b) they are not engaged in the business of selling firearms. For example, a parent could give a firearm to their adult child, a friend could sell a gun to a friend, etc. However, if someone makes a habit of this then the government is likely to get involved and penalize them for engaging in the business of selling firearms without a federal firearms license.

While it is legal to buy a gun as a gift for someone (a parent may buy a gun as a gift for their child, for example, assuming the child is of proper age to possess one) it is illegal for a someone to purchase a firearm for a prohibited person (for example, it's illegal for a person with a clean record to buy a gun at a gun shop or from a private person on behalf of someone with a criminal record) -- that illegal action is called "straw purchasing" and is highly illegal and regularly prosecuted by the government.

Certain states prohibit person-to-person private sales, though it's not really been shown to be effective at reducing crime.

3. The US federal government (specifically the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives) considers that firearms that are easy to modify to fire full-auto are, in fact, full-auto guns even if they are not modified in that way. Such easily-modifiable guns are regulated exactly the same as if they were machine guns.

Firearms like the AR-15 are physically different from the M16 internally and use different parts. For example, this link (non-EF gun forum) shows the physical differences between the M16 and a few different generations of the AR-15 "bolt carrier": the AR-15 bolt carrier is designed specifically so it cannot fire full-auto, even if other full-auto components are present in the gun. (It has metal missing in key components that would be necessary to work with full-auto components.)

This site (another non-EF gun site) shows the detailed differences between the different components. For example, the M16 hammer has a small hook that allows it to catch on the "auto sear" (a component that releases the hammer at the proper time when firing full-auto) while the AR-15 hammer does not.

Additionally, the "lower receiver" (the body of the gun that contains the operating mechanisms) of the AR-15 cannot physically fit the full-auto components of the M16 without significant machining and metal work.

The government frowns heavily on the presence of full-auto-capable components in semi-auto guns, even if they are not capable of firing full-auto.

While it's certainly possible to convert pretty much any modern firearm to full-auto or to build a firearm entirely from scratch (particularly if one has access to a machine shop), it generally requires equipment and skills not commonly available to the average person.

The legal penalties for possessing (even inadvertently) an unregistered, illegal machine gun are extremely stiff ($250,000 fine and 10 years in jail at the minimum). People have gotten into serious legal trouble when their otherwise perfectly legal semi-auto firearm suffered a mechanical malfunction and "doubled" (fired two shots), though this tended to affect certain types of older, imported firearms and is essentially unheard of with modern guns as the design of these guns makes such malfunctions very unlikely.

4. Yes, it's certainly true that an attacker with a larger magazine is capable of firing more without reloading. Changing a magazine is the work of a few seconds at most. In the recent tragedy in Connecticut, the attacker fired between 50-100 rounds (according to sourced linked by the Wikipedia) in total over 10 minutes and reloaded frequently, even if he had only fired 15 shots from a 30-round magazine. In this particular case, it doesn't seem that limiting the capacity of magazines would have had much of an effect as he didn't seem to meet with much resistance that would have interfered with his reloading.

There's a valid point to be made regarding magazine capacity, but I'm not really sure how much of an effect it would really have on reducing violent crime: mass shootings, while extremely high-profile and widely publicized, are statistically very rare (thank goodness!) and the attacker usually has the element of surprise. Such crimes make up a tiny fraction of the overall firearm-related homicides in the US, most of which are committed with handguns and involve the firing of only a few shots.

As I mentioned before, magazine capacity limits were previously implemented on the federal level and currently exist in certain states though it's not clear if they have any effect on violent crime rates.

As we say in science, "more research is needed".

5 & 6. While it may be possible to modify these guns to be more lethal, my mention of such modifications were to emphasize that AR-15-type guns are easily customizable for a wide variety of purposes not related to their lethality. For example, it's relatively easy to replace the standard trigger mechanism with a higher-quality "match-grade" one that is designed specifically for competitions. Similarly, the standard barrel can be replaced with ones designed for greater accuracy for precision marksmanship.

Certain people may find that the standard shoulder stock or handgrips are not terribly ergonomic or comfortable, and these can be easily replaced with, at most, basic hand tools. They don't really have any effect on the lethality of the gun, and the basic operating principles remain unchanged.

Most "traditional" sporting rifles tend to be less user-customizable. My wife, for example, is about 162cm in height and most commonly-sold hunting rifles are too large for her and do not fit her comfortably -- they tend to designed for ~180cm men. By having a user-adjustable stock on the AR-15, she can adjust it to fit her better. When I shoot the same gun I can adjust the stock so that it fits me better.

Where it gets interesting is when one can change the caliber of the gun: the AR-15 is divided into two halves, the "lower receiver" (which contains the trigger and firing mechanism, magazine well, hand grip, shoulder stock, etc. and is legally the "gun") and the "upper receiver" (which consists of the barrel and gas system, and is legally considered to be an unregulated accessory, much like how buying springs, pins, or a barrel by itself is not regulated). They can be changed by removing only a few pins, so one can remove the .223 Remington-caliber "upper" from one "lower" and replace it with a .22LR "upper".

It's possible to replace the standard .223 Remington upper with a one chambered in a more powerful cartridge (such as the .308 Winchester or .30-06 Springfield cartridges commonly used in hunting; .223 Remington is relatively low-powered compared to most other rifle cartridges) though such modifications tend to be single-shot-only (or a smaller number of shots) as the larger cartridges do not fit into the magazine well on the bottom of lower receiver.

Still, anything is possible with a well-equipped machine shop, though I'm not aware of any crimes where such firearms were modified to be more dangerous or lethal. That's definitely something to look into.

I suppose my overall point is: "There's a lot of misconceptions on modern rifles like the AR-15, mostly based on their physical appearance and outward similarity to military firearms. They are functionally identical to other common civilian-legal firearms and are some of the most popularly-owned guns for sport, recreation, and competition in part because civilian shooters -- like soldiers -- prefer firearms that are accurate, reliable, rugged, and easy to maintain. There are certainly many places where improvements can be made in regards to reducing violent crime in the United States, but even with the great popularity of these types of guns, they are very rarely used in crime and it would probably be more beneficial to apply one's finite resources towards other, more effective solutions that would have greater benefit."

I'd really love it if the US had comparable rates of violent crime as Switzerland does. Switzerland has roughly half the guns-per-capita that the US does, but violent crime rates here are disproportionately lower than what that single measurement would indicate. Fortunately, things seem to be moving in the right direction in the US: even as the number of privately-owned guns has increased, violent crime rates and gun-related accidents are at or near all-time lows and have been trending lower for years. Still, we can do better!

Thanks for the really good questions.
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  #1006  
Old 10.01.2013, 15:51
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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75% gun deaths not innocent? proof? evidence?

Regarding the car point:
people managed to surive this world long before the car was made.
-yes, people also managed with straw huts houses before bricks went commercial. Times have changed since the early 20th century when the car, as you point out, was a luxury. Now, in the 21st century, cars are, more and more, a necessity.

Can you take luggage on a skateboard?
Can you use a bus/train/tram in the middle whenever you need?
Can you walk 20 miles to the supermarket?
Can you carry 6 shopping bags on a bicycle?

There is no form of transport as convenient and effective as a car. Public transport is good, but you are at the behest of the timtable, and countless other matters out of your control. What if there is no bus stop near your place of work? What if you work a night shift, and finish at 4am, when buses are not running?

And electric cars? where does the electricity come from? polluting power plants. And the components and processes required to make an electric car are far worse for the environment.

But i digress to prove where you went wrong. No one has said or implied that the gun control issue is a simple one. I even state, explicitly, it would be hard. But it is necassary. There is simply no reason why a 100-round magazine, or a several-hundred-rounds-a-minute assault rifle should be sold to unchecked people at gun conventions. Pistols or revolvers, for personal protection in the home, by suitably trained and qualified people, can be supported. There is a clear difference in preparing to kill people, and preparing for self-protection in a worst case scenario.

And regarding the lack of your salient point...it isnt an opinion, its simple fact. Look at it again, if you want.
Actually, that 75% includes suicides also. Look it up.

So, out of the circa 35,000 deaths by guns a year, 25% could be avoided with gun control. Gangs will always kill each other, people will always commit suicide.

Out of the 35,000 deaths by cars, 100% would of been avoided without cars.

The rest of your points about cars are about convenience. People would argue its more convenient to protect ones self, family, and property with a gun, than a knife.

FAIL
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  #1007  
Old 10.01.2013, 15:57
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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even more people die in traffic accidents... should we ban cars??

the claim about hospital deaths may or may not be true, but is irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
catch up with the rest of the thread
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  #1008  
Old 10.01.2013, 16:18
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Re: Impression of U.S. gun owners

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Good questions. I apologize in advance for the length of this posting. I hope people don't mind.

1. Yes. The federal ban existed between 1994-2004 and was allowed to expire because it didn't really have any significant effect on violent crime rates. Certain states (such as California) continue to have state-level bans.
Hey, I wanted to expand on this just a little. As I recall, this ban didn't really have as much to do with the rifle itself as with the styling in general. New rifles couldn't collapse to less than a certain minimum length or be sold with high capacity magazines. Mostly what happened was that a new rifle got sold with a 10 round magazine, with rivets shot through the telescopic stock to keep it from collapsing, with muzzle brakes or flash suppressors spot welded in place instead of being removable, and it had to have the bayonet attach lug removed (seriously!)

I think that even when this was taking place, a lot of people realized that the ban was a placebo. IMHO the reason that it didn't result in lower crime rates (and was ultimately allowed to expire) is that even in light of the current horrible shootings, these types of weapons are not the culprit in the vast majority of gun murders in the US.

I've said before that I truly don't see why anyone outside of the military needs a gun with a 30 round magazine, and in my opinion, that was the only part of the assault weapon ban that stood any chance of making even a tiny difference (which it really didn't).

Last edited by Desert Rat; 10.01.2013 at 16:19. Reason: typo
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  #1009  
Old 10.01.2013, 16:20
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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What's reasonable force against two or three scum armed with sharps?
What's that got to do with anything? You were claiming that you want the right to defend yourself, I pointed out that you have that right.

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Yes I am interested in shooting and have been since age 14. I don't hide it. What's your point? Should I not take part in the forum as I have an interest?
I would have thought the point was fairly obvious. However, I'll spell it out for you. Choose one or more from:

1. You like guns, therefore your arguments are likely to be based on that preference rather than on some grounds reached at by rational debate, weighing the pros and cons.
2. As you like guns you have a vested interest in defending against any attempts at gun control.

This is not to say that your liking of guns is wrong in any shape or form. Me - I neither like nor dislike guns. I'm entirely disinterested.
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  #1010  
Old 10.01.2013, 16:35
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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Actually, that 75% includes suicides also. Look it up.

So, out of the circa 35,000 deaths by guns a year, 25% could be avoided with gun control. Gangs will always kill each other, people will always commit suicide.

Out of the 35,000 deaths by cars, 100% would of been avoided without cars.

The rest of your points about cars are about convenience. People would argue its more convenient to protect ones self, family, and property with a gun, than a knife.

FAIL
Fail? Grow up.

Again, you've just made a statement with no logic or proof, just numbers retrieved from your back pocket. Where is this proof you insist exists? The onus is on you to provide it, sunshine.

75% includes suicides? - Improve the psychiatric help available to these people. the number of suicides by gun goes down.
Gangs will always kill each other? -Try and reduce the gangs. The number of gang related gun crime goes down.

People would also argue its even more convenient not having a house at all. Then you're gauranteed not to be robbed. Should we destroy everyones homes? Reductio ad abserdum works both ways.

Whilst it would be nice to have no need of motor cars on the roads, we dont live in a society where that is possible. It is possible, as shown by every other developed country on the planet, to have a sensible gun policy.

One last thought:
Someone untrained cannot drive a car. The gear work alone would confuse lesser minds. When you train to use one, you also understand and appreciate the dangers associated. Working out how to fire a gun needs no training or appreciation of what you have in your hand.

Lol...comparing guns to cars. Hilarious.

Can you drive?
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  #1011  
Old 10.01.2013, 16:36
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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Er..a word. What do you do for a living ?

I have spent 25 years nursing, including 7 yrs A&E in Manchester. During this time I had to deal with serious wounds inflicted on innocent members of the public including elderly residents living alone. In 2003 I had to put 26 stitches in a 14 yr old girl's leg when she went to help her father foil a burglar. I've had a police officer break down in desperation that she was not able to better protect a passerby attacked by a knife wielding moron as she was arresting him.

Assumption, fantasy, reality, experience. Don't come here with your snappy smug one liners thinking you've got the highground on this subject, get some experience in the subject we're debating before making such childish statements.
I have:

- seen people shot
- been shot
- shot people
- have been in law enforcement, military and with govt. agency

Once you have experienced these things up close and personal, it changes your whole perspective and you see what a madness and what a waste everything that is being discussed here is.

My family immigrated to the New World on the William and Mary in 1661 and have been part and parcel in the making of America, including the Declaration of Independence and Constitution which I have grown up steeped in. The America of today is but a farce, a parody and a corruption of what the founders intended and hoped for. The very issue of guns, now a madness, is an outgrowth of modern day hate, fear, greed and illusions, a mass mental illness in fact, purely a product of an unstable and destabilizing society.

If you want to add your own fear and illusions to the madness, rather than seeking peace with yourself and others, you are inevitably going to reap what you sow. Talk to me again when you grow up with your own experience, not simply telling the tales of others.
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  #1012  
Old 10.01.2013, 16:40
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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catch up with the rest of the thread

I responded to your quip about hospital infections but CaviarChips deleted it. the point was that we are doing all we practically can for hospital infections. the same cannot be said for gun control (or lack of, as it were).
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  #1013  
Old 10.01.2013, 16:41
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

To be fair to Rodica's children, he's got experience too: He's watched Rambo twice and Die Hard three times.
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Old 10.01.2013, 16:52
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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Fail? Grow up.

Again, you've just made a statement with no logic or proof, just numbers retrieved from your back pocket. Where is this proof you insist exists? The onus is on you to provide it, sunshine.

75% includes suicides? - Improve the psychiatric help available to these people. the number of suicides by gun goes down.
Gangs will always kill each other? -Try and reduce the gangs. The number of gang related gun crime goes down.

People would also argue its even more convenient not having a house at all. Then you're gauranteed not to be robbed. Should we destroy everyones homes? Reductio ad abserdum works both ways.

Whilst it would be nice to have no need of motor cars on the roads, we dont live in a society where that is possible. It is possible, as shown by every other developed country on the planet, to have a sensible gun policy.

One last thought:
Someone untrained cannot drive a car. The gear work alone would confuse lesser minds. When you train to use one, you also understand and appreciate the dangers associated. Working out how to fire a gun needs no training or appreciation of what you have in your hand.

Lol...comparing guns to cars. Hilarious.

Can you drive?
Quoting latin from others use? grow up you are turning in to Carlos

Bit like all of your wishful thinking statements, whereas the stats are there for all to see, I will not be your personal google search engine you lazy *^&

you make me laugh, "try and improve this", "try and improve that" loads of ideas but not one single idea how to do it, and no acknowledgement that goverments have tried and tried, but people will always find ways of doing what they want to do i.e. guns banned in UK, well, if I wanted to I could fly there and get a gun tomorrow very easily.

Try and reduce gangs, they been trying to do that for 100's of years

Yeah, they tried to improve help with mental health, give them pills that can lead people to suicide or worse, murder......a lot of the people that do sick massacres are on some kind of mental health presciption. So, ideas, how you going to do it? Ohhhh, you dont know, but you have a nice idea?

LOL...jeez, grow up,

Yes, comparing guns to cars, they take as many lifes each a year, yet, guns purpose is to kill or seriously injure, and a car is to provide transport, but is killing the same, hmmmmmmm, tough for you isn't it

Yes, I can drive. But do i? No, neither do I have a gun and neither am I pro gun, just to remind you. I am just not a media puppy, like some
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Old 10.01.2013, 16:55
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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I responded to your quip about hospital infections but CaviarChips deleted it. the point was that we are doing all we practically can for hospital infections. the same cannot be said for gun control (or lack of, as it were).

I know you are a little obsessed at the moment, but that was not to you if you hadn't noted. Look out for your name in the quote as a little clue if you cant remember what you post.
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  #1016  
Old 10.01.2013, 17:05
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

wow this thread escalated quickly.
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Old 10.01.2013, 17:16
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Re: Impression of U.S. gun owners

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As an aside, I was pleased to see that this discussion thread has remained civil. Gun-related political discussions can often get emotional, so I'm please to see that EFers are made of more polite stuff. Well done!
Thanks for your non-emotional, well-reasoned input, Pete. Unfortunately This related thread proves that not all EFers are made of polite stuff.

Really disappointing, because it's an important topic that needs civil debate in order to reach reasonable solutions.
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  #1018  
Old 10.01.2013, 17:17
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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wow this thread escalated quickly.
Indeed...I suggest pistols at 20 paces.
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  #1019  
Old 10.01.2013, 17:17
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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Quoting latin from others use? grow up you are turning in to Carlos
Who on earth is Carlos?
Bit like all of your wishful thinking statements, whereas the stats are there for all to see, I will not be your personal google search engine you lazy *^&
Nor will you provide any evidence for your claims. Ergo, we cannot take them seriously.
you make me laugh, "try and improve this", "try and improve that" loads of ideas but not one single idea how to do it, and no acknowledgement that goverments have tried and tried, but people will always find ways of doing what they want to do i.e. guns banned in UK, well, if I wanted to I could fly there and get a gun tomorrow very easily.
How, exactly? Again, all claim, no evidence.
Try and reduce gangs, they been trying to do that for 100's of years
It didnt work so give up? Good thing Edison didnt have that line of thought, eh?

Yeah, they tried to improve help with mental health, give them pills that can lead people to suicide or worse, murder......a lot of the people that do sick massacres are on some kind of mental health presciption. So, ideas, how you going to do it? Ohhhh, you dont know, but you have a nice idea?
I never said pills were the answer. I said they needed psychiatric help, not pharmaceutical help. Help people deal with the issues, not suppress them so they return much worse later on in a school.

LOL...jeez, grow up,


Yes, comparing guns to cars, they take as many lives each a year, yet, A guns purpose is to kill or seriously injure, and a car is to provide transport, but is killing the same, hmmmmmmm, tough for you isn't it
There is a strong reason to have cars. No such reason exists for civilians to have assault rifles.

Yes, I can drive. But do i? No, neither do I have a gun and neither am I pro gun, just to remind you. I am just not a media puppy (A republican gun nut instead, perhaps? You seem to be quoting the NRAs line verbatim.), like some

Please see above.

Have a good day.
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  #1020  
Old 10.01.2013, 17:33
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Re: Alex Jones rant... Switzerland model gun country

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Please see above.

Have a good day.
Who on earth is Carlos?
The other poster you keep copying with waffle.

Nor will you provide any evidence for your claims. Ergo, we cannot take them seriously.

The FBI have provided them online, go and check it out.

How, exactly? Again, all claim, no evidence.

This is my favourite. How is what I have been asking you over the last 10 posts with all your wonderful IDEAS. Bless, it's like a 5 year with the why questions. But as for how, I would fly there, in a plane, to where I am from, in London, call a friend, and have one within a few hours. It really is that simple.

It didnt work so give up? Good thing Edison didnt have that line of thought, eh?

No, not exactly. But gangs are due to various social issues and impacted no doubt by certain entertainment with no quick fix, primarily as we cant all be rich and wealthy and grow up in nice areas with nice schools and not need to resort to crime to survive or feel apart of a community. We can maybe talk to them, and ban guns and tell them to be nice, like your great ideas, but, most of the guns they have are illegal anyway NEWSFLASH

I never said pills were the answer. I said they needed psychiatric help, not pharmaceutical help. Help people deal with the issues, not suppress them so they return much worse later on in a school.

I never said you did. I am telling you that has been the answer, and it has made things arguably worse. Again, more fluff but no answers from you. "help people deal with the issues", what sing songs around a camp fire? We cant take you seriously.

There is a strong reason to have cars. No such reason exists for civilians to have assault rifles.

Human greed and convenience, sure thats a strong reason to have cars and kill 35,000 people in the US a year.

A republican gun nut instead, perhaps? You seem to be quoting the NRAs line verbatim

Well, I am not American so can't acclaim to be a supporter of any American political party or gun association.


Why thank you, I will, you keep up the nice ideas
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