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  #1101  
Old 16.01.2013, 18:08
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Re: New NRA Ad: Are the Presidents kids mor important than yours?

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My possible answer? Have the courage to say "to hell" with the outdated and irrelevant 2nd amendment, ban all assault weapons and start restricting personal ownership and access to all firearms.

What's your possible answer?
Thanks, you offered something this time.

I would argue the same thing, but the reality is harder to put in practice. There are too many guns now. So, first there needs an amnesty, then a sweep up, then work on the criminal gang aspect bringing the guns back in, then still left with millions who ignored the amnesty. 99% of those will probably never have their guns surface for the wrong reasons and there will be no problem, but one day, not far away, despite any bans, restrictions, it will happen again.

Then what? Do the family get charged for not handing their guns in? The registered owner? What if it was the registered owner? Either way, more innocents dead.

Personally, I would put armed guards at schools, at least as a temporary measure. Or, at least more security at schools, whilst the laws, plans, and attempts to manage social and mental issues are drawn up.
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Old 16.01.2013, 18:10
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Re: New NRA Ad: Are the Presidents kids mor important than yours?

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Of course Heads of State's kids will get special treatment, that is nothing special in itself, show me any country on the globe that doesn't conform to that practice.
This country, for example.

Tom
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  #1103  
Old 16.01.2013, 18:13
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Re: New NRA Ad: Are the Presidents kids mor important than yours?

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I don't know if it's still the case but there was a time that in the Scandinavian countries this was very much the case. my mother lived in Norway for three years and said she saw the King riding his bicycle on several occasions, just mixed up in the other traffic.
Yes, I was having dinner at a sushi restaurant in Oslo, and the woman I was with mentioned that the blond on the other side of the sushi-bar was the crown-princess. No armed guards anywhere.

Tom
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Old 16.01.2013, 18:15
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Re: New NRA Ad: Are the Presidents kids mor important than yours?

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Yes, I was having dinner at a sushi restaurant in Oslo, and the woman I was with mentioned that the blond on the other side of the sushi-bar was the crown-princess. No armed guards anywhere.

Tom
Which obviously beggars the question; was she hot?
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  #1105  
Old 16.01.2013, 18:15
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Re: New NRA Ad: Are the Presidents kids mor important than yours?

Just wondering if those republican nra gun owners will be willing to pay more taxes to pay for these guards? Or better yet, do away with schooling all together and kill 2 birds with 1 stone (or bullet), so to say. Help lower gov. spending, it would.

The same holds true for democrat nra gun owners, but dems aren't as vehemently opposed to raising taxes as repubs...
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Old 16.01.2013, 18:19
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Re: New NRA Ad: Are the Presidents kids mor important than yours?

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Can I ask why you find it so hard to accept the notion of less guns/not arming schools? It won't eradicate the problem, I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting it will, I just think it would make it a bit more difficult for 17 year olds/whoever, to get hold of a fairly efficient means of killing people.

I am also not american, and whilst not really understanding the need to keep a gun can imagine some scenarios where people would want to have one so I do not believe it is simply gun owners-bad, but it, to me, stands to reason that these are incredibly efficient means of killing people which could do with being better regulated.
I do not find it hard. I am wanting to debate the issue on the basis that there is no simple solution.

I would ask you why you find it hard to accept that some children deserve to be protected whilst others not?

In a country of instilled entitlement to gun ownership, and where pulling a gun, using a gun is akin to being smoker and carrying a lighter, then there are some serious social issues to address when something goes wrong.

I am all for less guns, not arming schools, if I believed it would work. Sadly, I do not believe it will, and is a smoke screen of action in light of recent incidents, which does not detract from the fact that there are serious social and mental issues in America right now, and no law or restriction will rid the streets of guns, or protect innocent children or adults from them, not quickly anyway. Alas, I believe, children deserve to be protected with guns until serious inroads have been made to deal with the bigger issues.

They protect diamonds with guns at stores? Because people with guns try to steal them. Why not protect children with guns at school because nutters come to kill them? When you have got rid of the nutters, and the guns, then we can get rid of the guards.
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Old 16.01.2013, 18:21
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Re: New NRA Ad: Are the Presidents kids mor important than yours?

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Which obviously beggars the question; was she hot?
Who, my date or the princess?

Tom
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  #1108  
Old 16.01.2013, 18:26
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Re: New NRA Ad: Are the Presidents kids mor important than yours?

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What a staggering dumb advert.
Quite the contrary. They are only asking for equal treatment. Only fair, isn't it ?
Can we now please see the birth certificates and tax declarations for the last ten years of all the NRA members ?
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Old 16.01.2013, 18:31
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Re: New NRA Ad: Are the Presidents kids mor important than yours?

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Lastly, I would like to say that given not uncommon attempts at POTUS's lives, it is no exaggeration to say they face elevated risks. It is a real down-side to the job. You think not? Take a look at the attached article to see what disruption the presidents' daughters have to go through. These children face living under a microscope in a way that most children thankfully do not.

http://www.creators.com/opinion/dian...t-service.html
I guess the media are at least in part to blame.

For many past presidents I was vaguely aware they had children, but wasn't even sure. The Obama kids are being dragged into the limelite so much that you'd almost think they were celbrities in their own right.
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Old 16.01.2013, 18:32
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Re: New NRA Ad: Are the Presidents kids mor important than yours?

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In a country of instilled entitlement to gun ownership, and where pulling a gun, using a gun is akin to being smoker and carrying a lighter, then there are some serious social issues to address when something goes wrong.
In all my 30+ years while living in the US I have never had a gun pulled on me nor felt the need to own one. Nor have I known anyone to do so. Not saying it doesn't exist, but life in the US really isn't all Wild West...
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Old 16.01.2013, 18:32
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Re: New NRA Ad: Are the Presidents kids mor important than yours?

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I do not find it hard. I am wanting to debate the issue on the basis that there is no simple solution...

...In a country of instilled entitlement to gun ownership, and where pulling a gun, using a gun is akin to being smoker and carrying a lighter, then there are some serious social issues to address when something goes wrong.

I am all for less guns, not arming schools, if I believed it would work. Sadly, I do not believe it will, and is a smoke screen of action in light of recent incidents, which does not detract from the fact that there are serious social and mental issues in America right now, and no law or restriction will rid the streets of guns, or protect innocent children or adults from them, not quickly anyway. Alas, I believe, children deserve to be protected with guns until serious inroads have been made to deal with the bigger issues.

They protect diamonds with guns at stores? Because people with guns try to steal them. Why not protect children with guns at school because nutters come to kill them? When you have got rid of the nutters, and the guns, then we can get rid of the guards.

I agree completely which is why I said that restricting access to gun control is not going to solve the problem, but in my opinion it might just stop more shots being fired in schools. Your argument seems to be to encourage more shooting at schools, ie there is a much higher chance of someone discharging a weapon (fnarr) if they have one readily available.

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I would ask you why you find it hard to accept that some children deserve to be protected whilst others not?
If I follow correctly; I am perfectly willing to accept that the children of the President get more armed guards than little Billy in Spitsville, Arizona. This is based on there being much more of a risk to the offspring of the President than Billy. There is no question of 'deserving' anything, simply a much greater threat.
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Old 16.01.2013, 18:33
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Re: New NRA Ad: Are the Presidents kids mor important than yours?

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So if your child is killed because there was no guard and the child did not attend the presidents school so was not privileged enough to be protected, you would be ok with this being of the certain disposition you are?
If my kid was shot dead I wouldn't care how the VIPs are protected, I would still be totally against having armed guards and metal detectors at schools, cinemas, shopping centres, kindergardens train stations and any other place shootings happen....... They day society has to turn its country in to a high security prison is the day society failed.

There's being two massive terror attacks on Europes rail network and a couple of attempted ones in Germany would you now be for scanning all bags and people entering train/underground stations?

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They protect diamonds with guns at stores? Because people with guns try to steal them. Why not protect children with guns at school because nutters come to kill them? When you have got rid of the nutters, and the guns, then we can get rid of the guards.
The shops pay guards with guns at diamond stores. Who's gonna pay for the guards at schools? The NRA? Doubt it. Aren't schools one area where spending cuts are likely to happen? So they can't afford. I find it highly hypocritical to demand armed guards at every place of learning which would inevitably be paid by tax payers while at the same time criticising 'elitist' Obama for wanting everyone to pay their 'fair share'
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  #1113  
Old 16.01.2013, 18:33
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Re: New NRA Ad: Are the Presidents kids mor important than yours?

Since the OP was about the commercial, I'll stick to addressing that. I think it shows the NRA are really grasping at straws. Attacking Obama personally deflects from the heart of the larger gun-control debate. It's like comparing apples and chainsaws, if you will.

Of course the children of the so-called "most powerful man in the world" have protection. They do fall under special circumstances, whether we like it or not. Let's not forget that the children of the past several U.S. presidents, of both political affiliations, have been covered by the Secret Service. It's also using apples-chainsaws to compare the children of the U.S. president to those of some northern European figurehead monarch or the Swiss president. It has to do with the amount of power (or perceived power?) any given head of state has, and how that power could be manipulated.

I'm not taking sides for now. I'd like more information. What I would like to see is a reasoned argument from NRA and its supporters regarding these high-power, high-capacity weapons that extends beyond the 2nd Amendment, and that doesn't attack anyone personally. So far I'm still waiting.
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Old 16.01.2013, 18:36
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Re: New NRA Ad: Are the Presidents kids mor important than yours?

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As far as I am aware, there has never been a single attempt, in the history of America, to shoot up a school where the presidents children attend.
Reading this made me think: better safe than sorry. Just because it's never happened doesn't mean it couldn't. And who knows - maybe it was attempted, we just never heard anything about it. DO you have any idea how much money is invested in these schools?
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Old 16.01.2013, 18:37
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Re: New NRA Ad: Are the Presidents kids mor important than yours?

The ad is stupid. It seems obvious to me that the President's children should have Secret Service protection. Actually, the Service protects former Presidents as well, I think that only Jimmy Carter has fired his security detail.

FYI, a lot of US schools already have police officers on the campus, They are real cops with real guns, but in addition to security, they do anti-drug programs anti-bullying, etc. My kid's middle school in the states had "officer ABC" who was there every day and who my kids really liked. He also helped direct traffic in the mornings outside of the school. (this was a middle school/high school campus of about 600 kids).
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Old 16.01.2013, 18:46
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Re: New NRA Ad: Are the Presidents kids mor important than yours?

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I agree completely which is why I said that restricting access to gun control is not going to solve the problem, but in my opinion it might just stop more shots being fired in schools. Your argument seems to be to encourage more shooting at schools, ie there is a much higher chance of someone discharging a weapon (fnarr) if they have one readily available.



If I follow correctly; I am perfectly willing to accept that the children of the President get more armed guards than little Billy in Spitsville, Arizona. This is based on there being much more of a risk to the offspring of the President than Billy. There is no question of 'deserving' anything, simply a much greater threat.
No, I don't think having an armed guard at schools will encourage more shootings, quite the opposite.

I think it would act as a deterrent whilst the bigger issues of gun ownership is sorted out. A long and winding road I suspect.

The way I see it, the country has too many guns, too many powerful guns, and it is all too easy for those guns to be used incorrectly in the most inhumane way. A ban could make such weapons illegal, and laws can make ownership tougher, but I do not think that will prevent the next school shoot up.
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Old 16.01.2013, 18:49
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Re: New NRA Ad: Are the Presidents kids mor important than yours?

It really blows my mind how so many Americans are completely over-reacting to these school shootings by thinking that teachers should have guns, etc. In fact, it's really starting to make me embarrassed to be an American.

Do these people not realize how unlikely it is that their children will ever be involved in a school shooting?

There is a much, MUCH stronger chance that their kids will die in an auto accident than in something like a school shooting or a theater shooting, etc. So does this mean that their kids should never ride in cars?

Unbelievable.

I'm just thankful that Obama is in office rather than a Republican right now, because (for example), if Bush was still in office right now, I think every teacher in the U.S. would suddenly be required to keep an Ak-47 in their desk.

Last edited by Pancakes; 16.01.2013 at 19:07.
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Old 16.01.2013, 18:52
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Re: New NRA Ad: Are the Presidents kids mor important than yours?

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If my kid was shot dead I wouldn't care how the VIPs are protected, I would still be totally against having armed guards and metal detectors at schools, cinemas, shopping centres, kindergardens train stations and any other place shootings happen....... They day society has to turn its country in to a high security prison is the day society failed.

There's being two massive terror attacks on Europes rail network and a couple of attempted ones in Germany would you now be for scanning all bags and people entering train/underground stations?



The shops pay guards with guns at diamond stores. Who's gonna pay for the guards at schools? The NRA? Doubt it. Aren't schools one area where spending cuts are likely to happen? So they can't afford. I find it highly hypocritical to demand armed guards at every place of learning which would inevitably be paid by tax payers while at the same time criticising 'elitist' Obama for wanting everyone to pay their 'fair share'
Interesting. See, if I was given the choice, in America, to have my child under armed protection at school, and pay for it in additional school fees, I would. Whilst I am totally against police state, I would find myself and unwilling victim of a society created by my fellow man of which I need to take necessary action.

I would argue society has already failed, or is failing in the US, and alas, saddening measures are required.
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Old 16.01.2013, 19:12
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Re: New NRA Ad: Are the Presidents kids mor important than yours?

So to answer the original question,

yes the presidents children are more important than mine. My child is the most precious thing in the world to my wife and I, and I am sure Obama and Michelle feel the same about theirs.

But as pointed out they are important to a nation, mine not so.

Equal protection. Does that mean every child in the US with full time armed security? Why just at school? Where do you draw the line? There have been shootings at least at school, cinema`s, a place of worship all in the last 6 months.

Work out the cost of armed guards (are we on one or have we moved to two in case one goes postal?) and the lack of practicality involved. If you have 2 and one goes postal he only needs to surprise the other guard so now do we have 3?

For a school with 600 an armed guard is financially possible but what about all the small schools?

The ad is just NRA bullshit and I think most Americans will see it such. They could offer much more logical arguments and they come up with this?

A change in gun laws, an amnesty, a buy back program are all starts. Then massive fines and jail for those still carrying.

But there have been loads of gun control threads here recently. Nothing has changed really just a dumb ad by the NRA.

No change will come easily in the US. There are two camps so far apart from each other that compromise and common sense will be difficult. Just as with the political split about taxes, health care, etc they will fight each other and it will be so drawn out that any progress will be very slow. Hope I am wrong.
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Old 16.01.2013, 19:21
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Re: New NRA Ad: Are the Presidents kids mor important than yours?

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In all my 30+ years while living in the US I have never had a gun pulled on me nor felt the need to own one. Nor have I known anyone to do so. Not saying it doesn't exist, but life in the US really isn't all Wild West...
Ironically, the only member of our household ever to have owned guns is my wife (a local).

But, maybe Ticino IS the Wild West!

Meanwhile, in the US I had friends with guns, neighbors with guns, co-workers with guns, roommates with guns, and BILs with guns, but never personally witnessed any gun crime in the 26+ years I lived there.

Tom
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