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  #1281  
Old 21.01.2013, 20:02
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Agreed, and even the Aussie politicians were careful to say that what worked for them may or may not work for U.S. I forget the number of guns that were collected as part of the buy-back program there, but I'd dare say it would wind up being far less in the U.S. Still, I think this kind of idea or a variant should be one of many on the table.
Maybe instead of buying them back at 100 a piece, like I believe was the rate in Australia, they can offer store credit for buying hand guns.

That was a joke. Or tax deductions.
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Old 21.01.2013, 21:18
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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Would it be possible for Obama to issue a presidential decree, forbidding the carrying or selling of firearms by private citizens?

There would then be an immediate law, which must be obeyed, and the NRA would have to start an impeachment process. By which time Obama would be out of office and most people would realise they can get along today without the need of firearms.
Well intentioned or not, I'm pretty sure that this idea is dancing around dictatorship territory!
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  #1283  
Old 22.01.2013, 09:52
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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Well intentioned or not, I'm pretty sure that this idea is dancing around dictatorship territory!
Yes, dictators issue decrees. Presidents, Senators, and Representatives use democratic process.
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  #1284  
Old 23.01.2013, 02:32
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

Another college shooting, in Texas. leaving 3 injured, including the 2 gunmen,

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/shots-fired-small-texas-college-192424899.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-21153340
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  #1285  
Old 23.01.2013, 15:45
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

And it started over an argument in parking lot.

No nut job with a gun. Just an argument that escalated.

Seriously guys, is there really a valid argument for carrying handguns?
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  #1286  
Old 23.01.2013, 15:48
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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And it started over an argument in parking lot.

No nut job with a gun. Just an argument that escalated.

Seriously guys, is there really a valid argument for carrying handguns?
Yes, to defend myself from the nutjob that pulls a gun over a parking fight.
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  #1287  
Old 23.01.2013, 17:37
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Yes, to defend myself from the nutjob that pulls a gun over a parking fight.
Better pack an assault rifle just in case the other guy pulls an Uzi
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  #1288  
Old 23.01.2013, 17:39
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Better pack an assault rifle just in case the other guy pulls an Uzi
Hardly likely, but consistent with your previous demagoguery...
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  #1289  
Old 23.01.2013, 17:41
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

Btw how does the NRA explain away the lower gun related crime rates in Europe? At least I think they're lower.
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  #1290  
Old 23.01.2013, 17:49
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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Better pack an assault rifle just in case the other guy pulls an Uzi


A handgun would be much more useful than an assault rifle. As you know, assault rifles are almost identical in function to hunting rifles, it's the appearance, largely, that's different. It would be unwieldy even if it was already at hand on a shoulder strap.

If the fellow is lunatic enough to have a highly illegal full-auto Uzi and be pulling it in public (or Mac-10, it's not 1985 anymore ), then you should hope to have something rather punchy, like a 1911 chambered for 45 ACP. Any glancing hit to the body or limb with this will at least temporarily disable the crazy guy.
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  #1291  
Old 23.01.2013, 17:58
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Re: A shooting just happened in ( *fill in the blank * )

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A handgun would be much more useful than an assault rifle. As you know, assault rifles are almost identical in function to hunting rifles, it's the appearance, largely, that's different. It would be unwieldy even if it was already at hand on a shoulder strap.

If the fellow is lunatic enough to have a highly illegal full-auto Uzi and be pulling it in public (or Mac-10, it's not 1985 anymore ), then you should hope to have something rather punchy, like a 1911 chambered for 45 ACP. Any glancing hit to the body or limb with this will at least temporarily disable the crazy guy.
He doesn't quite know what he's talking about. Matching a sub machine gun against an assault rifle doesn't make much sense. The .45ACP does have about a 97% one-hit stopping power, so it'd be perfect for self-defense in a parking lot.
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  #1292  
Old 23.01.2013, 18:00
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

Seriously, how does a proliferation of guns make it safer?

Do you feel unsafe in Switzerland because you can't carry a gun? Do criminals in Switzerland have guns?

If the assumption is that within any society an element will tend to lawlessness, do you wish to encourage that element to a heightened level of assault? IE if the general public could be carrying a gun the criminal will carry 2 or a more powerful one - and the cycle continues.

The logic for carrying a gun because someone else is carrying a gun is circular. Step out of the circle and start from the beginning - a point where no-one carries. Inevitably the minority criminal element will exert more force (physical, blade, bullet) but is that enough to warrant the mass to follow suit?
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  #1293  
Old 23.01.2013, 18:10
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Re: New NRA Ad: Are the Presidents kids mor important than yours?

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No no no. Nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
Aliens fan eh?
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  #1294  
Old 23.01.2013, 18:31
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Seriously, how does a proliferation of guns make it safer?

Do you feel unsafe in Switzerland because you can't carry a gun? Do criminals in Switzerland have guns?

If the assumption is that within any society an element will tend to lawlessness, do you wish to encourage that element to a heightened level of assault? IE if the general public could be carrying a gun the criminal will carry 2 or a more powerful one - and the cycle continues.

The logic for carrying a gun because someone else is carrying a gun is circular. Step out of the circle and start from the beginning - a point where no-one carries. Inevitably the minority criminal element will exert more force (physical, blade, bullet) but is that enough to warrant the mass to follow suit?
The point where no one carries doesn't exist, so what you're ultimately advocating is to disarm honest, law-abiding folks, most of whom aren't the problem (there are some honest, law-abiding idiots that shouldn't handle anything more dangerous than a beach ball...).

Also, have you considered that we're only seeing this from one side? How many incidents are prevented each month or year because of individuals using handguns properly for self-defense or defense of another? I doubt you know, because I don't know, and I've been looking. However, I do know these events do happen, where a bad guy is stopped by someone with a gun. I also know there are more of these events than there are mass shootings. It is impossible to estimate how many people one of these "caught" individuals might've or might not've hurt or killed.

What else I know, is that these events don't make for sensational, advertisement-selling news, so they are under-reported, while the mass killings are sensationalized and reported from every angle, 24/7, worldwide... This creates an image of things that isn't accurate, that people with guns are rampant and out-of-control. The truth is, and has been, that the vast preponderance of firearms in private hands in the US are used for nothing more than target practice.

Unfortunately, when you have a population the size of the US, you get enough people that cause problems for the rest. When you have a media as pervasive and zealous as that in the US, these people get an inordinate amount of the spotlight.

There is a problem with American culture that doesn't stem from guns, but is reflected in how quickly so many Americans choose violence as a conflict-resolution technique, and how easy some are to become offended.
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Old 23.01.2013, 18:41
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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The point where no one carries doesn't exist, so what you're ultimately advocating is to disarm honest, law-abiding folks, most of whom aren't the problem (there are some honest, law-abiding idiots that shouldn't handle anything more dangerous than a beach ball...).

Also, have you considered that we're only seeing this from one side? How many incidents are prevented each month or year because of individuals using handguns properly for self-defense or defense of another? I doubt you know, because I don't know, and I've been looking.
However, I do know these events do happen, where a bad guy is stopped by someone with a gun. I also know there are more of these events than there are mass shootings. It is impossible to estimate how many people one of these "caught" individuals might've or might not've hurt or killed.

What else I know, is that these events don't make for sensational, advertisement-selling news, so they are under-reported, while the mass killings are sensationalized and reported from every angle, 24/7, worldwide... This creates an image of things that isn't accurate, that people with guns are rampant and out-of-control. The truth is, and has been, that the vast preponderance of firearms in private hands in the US are used for nothing more than target practice.

Unfortunately, when you have a population the size of the US, you get enough people that cause problems for the rest. When you have a media as pervasive and zealous as that in the US, these people get an inordinate amount of the spotlight.

There is a problem with American culture that doesn't stem from guns, but is reflected in how quickly so many Americans choose violence as a conflict-resolution technique, and how easy some are to become offended.
Yes, it happens in the OK Coral - not Migros car park.

As long as people carry guns other will be shot with them - good or bad. Hoping the goodie wins is what we did as kids when we watch The Lone Ranger. I grew up...
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Old 23.01.2013, 18:50
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Yes, it happens in the OK Coral - not Migros car park.

As long as people carry guns other will be shot with them - good or bad. Hoping the goodie wins is what we did as kids when we watch The Lone Ranger. I grew up...
Its Corral, btw... And the OK Corral was actually a police action.

So, your education about guns must've stopped as well when you stopped watching the Lone Ranger?
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  #1297  
Old 23.01.2013, 19:20
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

I continue to think that the current concentration on "assault weapons" is understandable within the American political context, but doesn't go as far as I'd like. I'd favour a civilian handgun ban also, and restrictions on hunting rifles, shot guns and target shooting.

Amendments to the constitution shouldn't have anything to do with it, they can always be re-amended.

When I was living in USA, in one of the safest cities in a lower crime state, there was a gun murder in the park near my house. Another young life cut short.
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Old 23.01.2013, 19:23
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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There is a problem with American culture that doesn't stem from guns, but is reflected in how quickly so many Americans choose violence as a conflict-resolution technique, and how easy some are to become offended.
And this is one of the key issues that is being ignored in the larger debate.
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Old 23.01.2013, 21:52
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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So, your education about guns must've stopped as well when you stopped watching the Lone Ranger?
As yours should, because that's where guns belong...
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Old 23.01.2013, 22:13
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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As yours should, because that's where guns belong...
So... to paraphrase... "Why oh why can't those silly Americans be like us Europeans?" Haven't you complained several times on this forum about Americans whinging on about how Switzerland is different?

I personally enjoy target shooting. I find it challenging and relaxing. If I were in the US, I would own my own personal handgun for this purpose. Would I carry it with me, loaded and concealed? Probably not.

As an American, in America, this is my right. I have never used this right to deny any other person their right, nor their property, nor their life. In this context, why should the automatic response be that we give up more freedom in the US for the sake of adding more structure onto a gun-control framework that already isn't working? Why do we immediately get emotional and blame the tool (the gun), and refuse to discuss the other, larger portions of the problems?

IMO, we can ban/confiscate firearms, but we'll never get all of them, nor will we deny the truly motivated individuals access to firearms, and there are plenty of other means to commit violent mayhem that are even more accessible than firearms in the US. If we don't address the cultural issues, we won't close the gap left by the removal of one tool (firearms), and this gap will simply be filled by another tool, maybe worse than its predecessor. If you want proof of this, look to 9/11. Guns were/are banned in the passenger cabin, so the terrorists killed thousands by using screwdrivers and box cutters to hijack the planes. If you want more proof, look at Richard Reid- security measures were changed because of 9/11, but he still found a way to try to kill people. It was only our good fortune that he was completely inept that kept that from becoming yet another tragedy. If you don't address the underlying problem, all you're doing is changing the tool, and you can't tell me whether that will truly be better or not.

“Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”


Benjamin Franklin
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