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Old 23.01.2013, 22:21
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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As an American, in America, this is my right. I have never used this right to deny any other person their right, nor their property, nor their life. In this context, why should the automatic response be that we give up more freedom in the US for the sake of adding more structure onto a gun-control framework that already isn't working? Why do we immediately get emotional and blame the tool (the gun), and refuse to discuss the other, larger portions of the problems?


“Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”


Benjamin Franklin
Well, I'm also American and believe that I should have a "right" to be free from the consequences of people around me owning guns and being irresponsible with them.

I also think our founding forefathers would have drafted our constitution much differently had it been created today. Times have changed. Our biggest threat is no longer the "American Indians" or the Brits, etc. Our biggest threat is ourselves.
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Old 23.01.2013, 22:29
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Well, I'm also American and believe that I should have a "right" to be free from the consequences of people around me owning guns and being irresponsible with them.
The difference here is that there is a right to bear arms in the US Constitution; there is no right to be free from irresponsible people, no matter what tool they hold. I too lament that there isn't nearly enough accountability for irresponsibility in the US. I'm not talking simply about jail sentences and the like, but parents and teachers holding children responsible to becoming well-behaved individuals and setting values in place that will hopefully render the legal system less necessary.

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I also think our founding forefathers would have drafted our constitution much differently had it been created today. Times have changed. Our biggest threat is no longer the "American Indians" or the Brits, etc. Our biggest threat is ourselves.
Which is why I want to be able to protect myself. However, I think the US Constitution to be a wonderful document that has worked well for over 200 years; I see no need to scrap it and start over. Perhaps at most a "reset" on a certain few things that have gone way too far astray, and a return of a lot of governmental/political power to the states.
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Old 23.01.2013, 22:29
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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“Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”


Benjamin Franklin
Benjamin Franklin Author profile
born: January 17, 1706 in Boston, Massachusetts, The United States
died: April 17, 1790

So he was around long before the Lone Ranger...
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Old 23.01.2013, 22:30
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Benjamin Franklin Author profile
born: January 17, 1706 in Boston, Massachusetts, The United States
died: April 17, 1790

So he was around long before the Lone Ranger...
I totally missed your point...
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  #1305  
Old 23.01.2013, 22:38
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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The difference here is that there is a right to bear arms in the US Constitution; there is no right to be free from irresponsible people, no matter what tool they hold. I too lament that there isn't nearly enough accountability for irresponsibility in the US. I'm not talking simply about jail sentences and the like, but parents and teachers holding children responsible to becoming well-behaved individuals and setting values in place that will hopefully render the legal system less necessary.
Yes, well, the original Constitution also endorsed slavery but thankfully, we changed that.
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  #1306  
Old 23.01.2013, 22:42
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Yes, well, the original Constitution also endorsed slavery but thankfully, we changed that.
It DIDN'T endorse slavery. It actually provided a(n incomplete) mechanism for the gradual elimination of slavery. Unfortunately this was the first precedent of "passing the buck" to future generations; however, even at the beginning of our country, our Founding Fathers DID understand that slavery was incompatible with the ideals of the US, they just didn't know how or want to solve it... This is DIFFERENT from endorsing slavery.
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  #1307  
Old 23.01.2013, 22:46
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

while I am not a big fan of guns I can certainly appreciate your argument (paragraph 2 & 3).
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Old 23.01.2013, 22:53
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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while I am not a big fan of guns I can certainly appreciate your argument (paragraph 2 & 3).
Thank you. IMO, what this subject needs is more open discussion, not a bunch of individuals emotively banging on about banning the guns. Perhaps this will mean changes to gun-possession laws, but knee-jerk, I-don't-care-about-the-truth, ban-'em-all arguments don't help anything and won't prevent the next tragedy to come.
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  #1309  
Old 23.01.2013, 23:26
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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It DIDN'T endorse slavery. It actually provided a(n incomplete) mechanism for the gradual elimination of slavery. Unfortunately this was the first precedent of "passing the buck" to future generations; however, even at the beginning of our country, our Founding Fathers DID understand that slavery was incompatible with the ideals of the US, they just didn't know how or want to solve it... This is DIFFERENT from endorsing slavery.
Well, I guess it's how you look at it. They were still determined to keep slavery legal for at least the next 20 years.

Article 1, Section 9:

"The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person."
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  #1310  
Old 23.01.2013, 23:27
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Well, I guess it's how you look at it. They were still determined to keep slavery legal for at least the next 20 years.

Article 1, Section 9:

"The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person."
Where does that ENDORSE slavery?
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  #1311  
Old 23.01.2013, 23:31
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Where does that ENDORSE slavery?
Well it certainly doesn't discourage it.

Ugh.

Semantics.
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Old 23.01.2013, 23:36
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Well it certainly doesn't discourage it.

Ugh.

Semantics.
Actually, it DOES discourage it, as it taxes it.

You picked the word, and got called on it. Don't get irked at anyone else...
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Old 23.01.2013, 23:42
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

Well....it all used to fit together back then. You needed your gun to go after your runaway slaves...
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Old 23.01.2013, 23:47
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

Not pithy, not funny, not accurate.

This is actually a very serious issue...

fduvall

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Well....it all used to fit together back then. You needed your gun to go after your runaway slaves...
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Old 23.01.2013, 23:58
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Not pithy, not funny, not accurate.

This is actually a very serious issue...

fduvall
I'm all ears....
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Old 24.01.2013, 00:01
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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I'm all ears....
Really? Before you were all mouth...
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Old 24.01.2013, 00:04
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Really? Before you were all mouth...
What's with the aggression so late at night? I just pointed out a handy coincidence in US history. I did not attack you.
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  #1318  
Old 24.01.2013, 09:20
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

The 2nd amendment isn't the reason most people have guns, it's just a handy excuse. Many people who hark on about the gov dominating the people if they were disarmed are wholey unrealistic on so many levels and I'm hoping thst they do not represent the vast majority of gun owners. If that really I'd why they collect guns then blimey.

Handguns are only for shooting people. In UK the argument used to be that they are for target shooting. If so, then why not air pistols? In the US the popular argument is home defense. Hmmmm. The hunting argument is plain dumb.

Self-loading rifles that appear like assault rifles are for posing and dreaming. Seriously why does anybody need those?
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Old 24.01.2013, 09:30
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Handguns are only for shooting people. In UK the argument used to be that they are for target shooting. If so, then why not air pistols? In the US the popular argument is home defense. Hmmmm. The hunting argument is plain dumb.
I know plenty of hunters who carry handguns. They are useful for dispatching wounded animals, and a necessity should you inadvertently get too close to a mother bear and her cubs.

Tom
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Old 24.01.2013, 09:48
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

Because their hunting rifles just aren't up to the job? Because bears prefer 9mm? Sounds like excuses not reasons.

As for recreational /private hunting being reason to shoot things in the first place....
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