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  #1321  
Old 24.01.2013, 10:03
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

Why resort to groaning at posts jobsrobertsharpii?
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  #1322  
Old 24.01.2013, 10:13
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Self-loading rifles that appear like assault rifles are for posing and dreaming. Seriously why does anybody need those?
Take it all the way man!

Who really needs a car?
Who really needs a house?
Who really needs designer clothes?
Who really needs 20 degrees in their dwelling?
Who needs alcohol?

Considering the state of the world, all would benefit if we made people prove they had a legitimate need for any of the above. Reducing the number of cars (and limit cars to a max speed of 120kmh, with the smallest possible motor to achieve that), putting more people into apartments (small ones, just what is needed), just the clothes they need, just the food they need, just enough heat to keep from freezing (you get a sweater allotment in your clothes needs). Ban alcohol. It is a drain to the health system, shortening lives, making orphans. Think of the children. The children! Everyone would benefit, certainly in years to come.

Sure some people will have to hand in their overpowered car, move to an apartment block, get used to cold hands, but screw them.

And to think that a great part of Europe was already on track here for decades, waiting lists for years to get a car, massive concrete block apartments with 60 sq.m for a family of 5, shops with just the food needed to survive. What happened?

Maybe the fact that alcohol was dirt cheap so the masses could numb themselves to the dreariness of their prescribed lives is a clue.


Let's not shift the argument to the standard "yes yes, whatever, but guns are only for killing- those other things aren't". This is about need. By limiting the things we allow people to have based purely on need, we will extend the life of this dying planet significantly. With something as important as that at hand, perhaps initiating further gun restrictions will go by the wayside while more important matters at hand are dealt with.

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  #1323  
Old 24.01.2013, 10:29
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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The 2nd amendment isn't the reason most people have guns, it's just a handy excuse.
.

No, it's not.

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Many people who hark on about the gov dominating the people if they were disarmed are wholey unrealistic on so many levels and I'm hoping thst they do not represent the vast majority of gun owners. If that really I'd why they collect guns then blimey.
Why don't you ask the folks that got run down in Tiananmen Square about the government dominating the people if they were disarmed? You can't because they're dead.


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Handguns are only for shooting people.
No they're not. Not even close. That statement is simply ignorant.

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In UK the argument used to be that they are for target shooting.
This is also a valid argument in the US. Target shooting is a popular sport in the US.

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If so, then why not air pistols?
Why not Nerf guns? Air pistols are what are used at carnivals. If I go target shooting, I want to actually shoot, not play a carnival game.

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In the US the popular argument is home defense.
Yes, that's true.


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Hmmmm. The hunting argument is plain dumb.
Tell that to the people that actually augment their income or diet with hunting. I personally grew up knowing people that hunted for food, and converted the kill into steaks, roasts, sausages, jerky and more. Even the hide was sold to leathermakers and the bones were ground up and used to fertilize a flowerbed or two. These people weren't doing something "dumb" as you presuppose.


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Self-loading rifles that appear like assault rifles are for posing and dreaming. Seriously why does anybody need those?
What's a self-loading rifle? I've never used a gun into which I didn't have to insert a magazine.

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I know plenty of hunters who carry handguns. They are useful for dispatching wounded animals, and a necessity should you inadvertently get too close to a mother bear and her cubs.

Tom
This is very true when hunting.

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Because their hunting rifles just aren't up to the job? Because bears prefer 9mm? Sounds like excuses not reasons.
And this part of your post sounds like ignorance, not reason...

Do you actually know anything about guns? Or did you just decide that they were bad, and that's all you needed to know to begin telling other people how to live their lives?

A rifle is designed to shoot at longer ranges, and, as others have pointed out, is unwieldy in close quarters situations. Additionally, most rifle rounds tend to be larger and have more gunpowder than do handgun rounds, which means they have more energy upon striking a target. At further distances, much of this energy can be dissipated in flight. At short range, ALL of this energy strikes the target, which in this case, is game that you're trying to dispatch. If you try to do this at close range with a rifle, this becomes extremely MESSY, which is why you would choose a lower-velocity round from a smaller weapon to do the job.

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As for recreational /private hunting being reason to shoot things in the first place....
Nobody is forcing you to hunt. Nobody.
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  #1324  
Old 24.01.2013, 10:50
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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; there is no right to be free from irresponsible people, no matter what tool they hold.
There is the right to live though which Governments are expected to protect.

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Also, have you considered that we're only seeing this from one side? How many incidents are prevented each month or year because of individuals using handguns properly for self-defense or defense of another? I doubt you know, because I don't know, and I've been looking. However, I do know these events do happen, where a bad guy is stopped by someone with a gun. I also know there are more of these events than there are mass shootings. It is impossible to estimate how many people one of these "caught" individuals might've or might not've hurt or killed.
I know your talking about incidents but I was wondering would you change your position towards guns if it could be proven (which it can't) that more lives are lost through accidental and mistaken gun deaths such as guns accidently going off, parents mistaken their children for intruders, people shooting unarmed people out of fear they were armed etc compared to lives saved through self-defence?


Genuine question: How come it is widely accepted that automatic guns should be banned but there is so much resistance towards measures such as universal backgroundchecks, limited magazines and banning semi-automatic assult rifles?
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Old 24.01.2013, 10:57
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

I am against guns in all forms and shapes, even plastic ones.

Being said, I don't see Americans getting rid of theirs so what is left? I hope for a strict controls, strict laws that will keep arms in a safe place with proper security to avoid anyone to get to put their hands on it so easily that a kid can take it from his parents and shot them, that one can go in a shop or online to buy them easily to mass murder people. That strong control are made for each person wanted to buy one, etc.

While I strongly wish of world peace and destruction of all form of weapons in the world, I don't leave in la la land. So I can only hope laws will come to make it more difficult to fall into the hands of mad people.

Inshallah.
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  #1326  
Old 24.01.2013, 11:25
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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I'm all ears....
Food for thought:

http://truth-out.org/news/item/13890...eserve-slavery
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  #1327  
Old 24.01.2013, 11:37
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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There is the right to live though which Governments are expected to protect.
Yes, there is. It's actually the first right enumerated in the Declaration of Independence. This is why we have so many laws against homicide, regardless of the tool used. In fact, life is so sacrosanct, that many states have determined that even the government doesn't have the authority to take life (through execution).



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I know your talking about incidents but I was wondering would you change your position towards guns if it could be proven (which it can't) that more lives are lost through accidental and mistaken gun deaths such as guns accidently going off, parents mistaken their children for intruders, people shooting unarmed people out of fear they were armed etc compared to lives saved through self-defense.
You're right, in that this can't be proven. However, I would say that we could use this rationale that we're "safer" without something, and extend it to cars, baseball bats, and even swimming pools, or almost anything that has the potential to harm or kill. Therefore, if I believe in banning guns on this rationale, I should also believe in banning all these other things, ignoring their potential benefits to world, or that the vast majority of any of these things don't actually cause any harm. Which, by the way, is also the case with guns...

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Genuine question: How come it is widely accepted that automatic guns should be banned but there is so much resistance towards measures such as universal backgroundchecks, limited magazines and banning semi-automatic assult rifles?
I personally do not disapprove of the idea of background checks; however I do think they have been conducted incorrectly in the US:

-The seller should not be the one conducting the background check. The seller's incentive is to sell more, the background check prevents this (for legitimate reason), so there's always potential for conflict and abuse in this scenario.
-Many background checks are based on local identifiers, such as a driver's license number or state ID card, and don't adequately capture things that may have happened in other states or countries.

IMO, magazine size doesn't change anything. If an assailant wants to carry 150 rounds with him/her, and s/he has to do it with 10 or 15 magazines versus a lesser number, what does that mean versus an unarmed victim?

Last, semi-automatic weapons is such a broad, catch-all term, that I don't see it as being a good criterion to use; many weapons described as "semi-automatic" are no more dangerous than single-shot weapons, while others ARE simply scaled-back versions of military-grade assault rifles. I think it would be better to try to discover which of these guns are truly the problem and address those, without a blanket ban.
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  #1328  
Old 24.01.2013, 11:53
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

This is a horrible article. The only person quoted as supporting the right to bear arms for the purposes of controlling slavery is Patrick Henry, and even then, the word "slaves" was inserted by the author of the article, not Mr. Henry. Aside from that, all this author has are some quotes taken out of context (that speak more strongly to states' rights versus federal rights), and a bunch of facts loosely tied together by historical suppositions. This author even goes on to try and change the historical connotation of the word "state" to suit his purposes.
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  #1329  
Old 24.01.2013, 12:01
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

Mud, I'd broadly agree with tackling the issues you list, but unless you are proposing US civilian gun ownership as the solution to world environmental and over population issues, then I think it's tangential to the debate.

Necessity is absolutely the crux of the issue IMO. Civilians do not need guns to degree currently provided for in the US.

I think that we all agree that some weapons should be illegal. The question is where the line is drawn. For me, I think it should be far lower than it is.
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Old 24.01.2013, 12:11
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

A good rebuttal:

http://www.theroot.com/views/2nd-ame...ect-slavery-no

This author does not believe the intent of the second Amendment was to protect individual gun ownership.
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  #1331  
Old 24.01.2013, 12:48
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

http://www.guns.com/2013/01/23/5-yea...ty-bubble-gun/

There is always 2nd side of the coin.
Just look at this foolhardy action by some anti-gun people.

Does it make sense anymore for both sides to listen to each other when there are extremists from both sides?
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Old 24.01.2013, 13:38
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

Hey all,

As some of you know, I grew up as a farm kid who was raised around guns. I'm not trying to take sides here, but I want to throw out following observations.

I was at Cabella's (big sporting goods store) in Glendale AZ over Christmas and their was a huge line, which I originally thought was maybe for returning unwanted christmas gifts. Turns out it was people waiting to complete computerized background checks for firearms purchase. While I was there, I killed some time talking to a couple of the people who were at the end of the line. One was a girl who was in the U.S. Air Force who was buying a rifle to take to the range as a hobby "while I can still get it." The other was a sniper for the Phoenix SWAT team. He was buying a 9mm handgun like his duty sidearm for his wife to keep at home "before Obama pushes through another ban."

I went to a shooting range a couple of days later, and while I was waiting, I talked to one of the retail sales ladies who said that bushmaster style rifles were completely sold out in every store in Arizona, and that they were limiting sales of aftermarket 30 round magazines to two a customer, as well as 5.56mm and 9mm ammunition to two boxes per customer.

During the two weeks I was home, I saw the cost of .22 caliber target ammunition go from $17.00 a carton to over $60.00, and most places still had a waiting list of a couple of days to get it. This was according to the sporting goods guy at a Wal-Mart in super-affluent Scottsdale, where they were only putting two boxes at a time on the shelf, because of the number of people who had come in asking for a certain calibre and then saying "I'll take it all."

I went on an online weapons classified site just now and saw that pretty much every used firearm is priced at least 25% more than it would have been 6 months ago, with "assault" style rifles selling used for 2-3 times last years MSRP for a new one, with most of the ads mentioning "get it before the ban"

My point in all of this is a simple one. You can cheer for the second amendment, or you can shake your head about how horrible the situation is, but regardless of which side of the argument you happen to be on, this is the reality. There are hundreds of millions of weapons, and 10's of millions of rounds of ammunition in general circulation in the United States. This practice of private gun ownership started when the country literally had a wild frontier, and it increases exponentially whenever someone starts talking about banning guns.

Future bans won't do anything to limit the number of firearms currently in circulation, nor will increasing the price of ammunition or firearms via increased taxes.

As far as the buyback programs, you will certainly see some junk handguns guns turned in, or grand-dads shotguns, but how many people are going to turn in their new 9mm for half of what they paid for it, (retail price for a Glock 9mm $500-800) or their AR-15 when they can sell it back to a firearms dealer or private individual for 3 times the cost of new and10 times the amount offered in the buyback?

Ban them all and just take them? There are a massive number of people (10's of millions) in the US who equate gun ownership with both constitutional rights and civil liberties, and we all know how well infringing on civil liberties is received.

Guns ownership in the US will not change in the foreseeable future. No amount of internet debate is going to change that reality.

It's obvious to me that if you were to get rid of every gun in America, you would eliminate shooting rampages, but it's equally obvious that it's simply not going to happen.

IMHO, to eliminate the kind of violence that we've recently seen, we are going to have to go a lot deeper into the root cause of a violent mentality than just saying "get rid of the guns."

Last edited by Desert Rat; 24.01.2013 at 14:24. Reason: Changed "thousands" to "millions" - Thanks rainer_d
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  #1333  
Old 24.01.2013, 13:54
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Hey all,

IMHO, to eliminate the kind of violence that we've recently seen, we are going to have to go a lot deeper into the root cause of a violent mentality than just saying "get rid of the guns."
If I'm not mistaken, this is also what Obama said.

But I think your numbers are way off. According to this wikipedia article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_ownership

88 guns per 100 people would mean 315,209,000*0.88 ~ 277,000,000 guns.

And that doesn't really account for all the illegal weapons around.

Switzerland is No3 on that list, but the gun-culture is completely different. Most Swiss people I know only go to the shooting range when they have to ("Obligatorisches Schiessen"). Weapons play no role in the society in daily life and while their are shootings and family dramas involving guns, the desire to take as many lives with you and go out with a bang is almost nonexistant here.
To each his own - Americans must decide if this is the society they want to live in. I certainly wouldn't.
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Old 24.01.2013, 14:07
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Mud, I'd broadly agree with tackling the issues you list, but unless you are proposing US civilian gun ownership as the solution to world environmental and over population issues, then I think it's tangential to the debate.

Necessity is absolutely the crux of the issue IMO. Civilians do not need guns to degree currently provided for in the US.

I think that we all agree that some weapons should be illegal. The question is where the line is drawn. For me, I think it should be far lower than it is.
It's not tangential to the idea that just because someone doesn't need something, that they shouldn't have the right to have it.

There are 270 million guns in private hands in the U.S. Million. 270 million. Obviously (to me anyway) there is no way they will ever be confiscated in a blanket small arms ban. I'm all for restrictions, sure, make people pass a practical test as well, absolutely. But people from the 'no guns for anyone and then all will be well' camp have to wrap their heads around the fact that eliminating guns in the U.S. simply will never ever happen.
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Old 24.01.2013, 14:35
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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If I'm not mistaken, this is also what Obama said.

But I think your numbers are way off. According to this wikipedia article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_ownership

88 guns per 100 people would mean 315,209,000*0.88 ~ 277,000,000 guns.

And that doesn't really account for all the illegal weapons around.

Switzerland is No3 on that list, but the gun-culture is completely different. Most Swiss people I know only go to the shooting range when they have to ("Obligatorisches Schiessen"). Weapons play no role in the society in daily life and while their are shootings and family dramas involving guns, the desire to take as many lives with you and go out with a bang is almost nonexistant here.
To each his own - Americans must decide if this is the society they want to live in. I certainly wouldn't.
Every story has two sides; assuming the figure of 277,000,000 guns is reasonably correct then the average number of deadly incidents per gun is a vanishingly small % - which makes it hard to justify a ban on a purely statistical basis.
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Old 24.01.2013, 14:36
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Every story has two sides; assuming the figure of 277,000,000 guns is reasonably correct then the average number of deadly incidents per gun is a vanishingly small % - which makes it hard to justify a ban on a purely statistical basis.
My gosh, how many times have I said this?
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  #1337  
Old 24.01.2013, 16:20
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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.

Why don't you ask the folks that got run down in Tiananmen Square about the government dominating the people if they were disarmed? You can't because they're dead.
How about looking at this from the other side.

Would you feel comfortable in or near a peaceful demonstration if most of the peaceful demonstrators carried guns? Emotions can run high at events like that and people can escalate their state of mind into a total "us = good and right, them = evil and wrong" state. The effect is only temporary as most of us have normal homes and jobs to return to. But now imagine that in that state of heightened righteousness just one weak-minded fool decides to shoot at the police or at a bystander who he considers to be part of the capitalist or fascist or liberal or the wrong sports team or wrong side of the abortion debate or whatever system they are demonstrating against at that moment. That could be the beginning of a massive bloodshed. And the police are not going to fire back with tear gas and rubber bullets as they do today but with machine guns and rockets. Is that what you want?

Mind you, I'm not against guns on principle, but I don't like this particular argument or its implications. Using a gun to defend your person or home is one thing. Using it to carry your political persuasion onto the streets is something different entirely. So be careful what you wish for.
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Old 24.01.2013, 16:29
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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My gosh, how many times have I said this?
Repeating your previous points ad infinitum doesn't normally seem to bother you

<D,RFC>
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Old 24.01.2013, 16:47
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Every story has two sides; assuming the figure of 277,000,000 guns is reasonably correct then the average number of deadly incidents per gun is a vanishingly small % - which makes it hard to justify a ban on a purely statistical basis.

The small number of actual cases didn't stop legislators from enacting tougher legislation on a number of other issues (speeding, file-sharing etc.).....
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Old 24.01.2013, 17:29
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Repeating your previous points ad infinitum doesn't normally seem to bother you

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I prefer to think of it as being consistent.
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