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  #1341  
Old 24.01.2013, 18:01
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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I personally do not disapprove of the idea of background checks; however I do think they have been conducted incorrectly in the US:

-The seller should not be the one conducting the background check. The seller's incentive is to sell more, the background check prevents this (for legitimate reason), so there's always potential for conflict and abuse in this scenario.
-Many background checks are based on local identifiers, such as a driver's license number or state ID card, and don't adequately capture things that may have happened in other states or countries.

IMO, magazine size doesn't change anything. If an assailant wants to carry 150 rounds with him/her, and s/he has to do it with 10 or 15 magazines versus a lesser number, what does that mean versus an unarmed victim?

Last, semi-automatic weapons is such a broad, catch-all term, that I don't see it as being a good criterion to use; many weapons described as "semi-automatic" are no more dangerous than single-shot weapons, while others ARE simply scaled-back versions of military-grade assault rifles. I think it would be better to try to discover which of these guns are truly the problem and address those, without a blanket ban.
Thanks I didn't know the background checks are so regional. What I don't understand is why is the NRA still trying to block the government closing the existing loopholes in the imperfect system rather than trying to help improve it. Surely it's also in gun owners own interest to make sure guns stay out of the hands of violent loonies, otherwise they risk Government tightening rules which would punish all gun owners.

I also agree that it would make sense if the buyer initiated gets the background check rather than the seller. Inevitably you'd then have cases of forgery and sellers knowingly accepting forgeries but that's a different issue.

I would disagree though that reducing magazine capacity doesn't change anything though. It may not change much but I remember in the Norwary attack there were at least few who are alive today due to his gun being empty. The chances are in a school shooting that magazine will empty as the shooter shoots at someone that second or two may help the victim escape to safety. In general the shooting rate would be reduced. Victims are three times as likely to be shot at with an empty magazine which may give them enough time to escape plus in such a tense environment, the shooter is three times as likely to fumble and drop a magazine which may give someone the opportunity to overpower them. I understand for recreational shooters this change would be a pain though as they would also need to reload more often

To the last one I did say semi automatic assault rifles and not just semi-automatic weapons which I agree would cover basically most modern guns

From what I've been reading there is neither a recreational nor hunting need for these weapons.
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  #1342  
Old 25.01.2013, 20:53
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

I just ran across this article in today's (U.S.) news...

Teen's confession: Horror film inspired murder of mom, sister

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...om-sister?lite


After watching the Halloween movie three times and then stealing his grandfather's gun, this 17 year old kid decided to kill his sister and mother.



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  #1343  
Old 25.01.2013, 21:44
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Have you ever noticed that its very difficult to argue with a lot of Americans about any subject whatsoever before they start to question "and who the hell are you?". If you question their long stand beliefs in anything that they consider to be a part of their DNA, they become very conservative and lose any ability to discuss their actual beliefs in any coherent way. Even when I play the devil's advocate with them to try and bring them out of their shells, I often end up with either prolonged silences or bombastic counter arguments that try to nuke my thought process into smithereens.

I remember this one flight from New York to Atlanta many moons ago when I was just chatting with the guy next to me and taking on a less than western approach about the Gulf War to try and make the debate interesting. He eventually accused me of being a communist at the top of his voice and indignantly moved to another seat. I'm more of a capitalist than the next guy in line, but the point was that he was unable to grasp the concept of debate.

Looking back in history, many Americans also seem to have lost the ability to debate think and therefore turn to their favored tool of conversation killing - the gun. Abe Lincoln, JFK, Martin Luther King, John Lennon, the list is potentially endless. Why not encourage debate at schools, the pro and con aspects of accepting and understanding other people's point of view would be a great basis for tolerance and a calmer demeanor?

(Footnote: That great uncelebrated event, Martin Luther King day, is today, Jan 21, 2013)
Maybe not an topic . In maxico ,we had some conversation with an american.My son "we normally spend our hollidays in cuba "American:'"we american boycott cuba because there communists" My son" but you are involved with china and vietnam and they are comis " american "Ah yea your right "
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  #1344  
Old 25.01.2013, 22:37
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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I just ran across this article in today's (U.S.) news...

Teen's confession: Horror film inspired murder of mom, sister

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...om-sister?lite


After watching the Halloween movie three times and then stealing his grandfather's gun, this 17 year old kid decided to kill his sister and mother.



According to the transcript of the confession, he got a knife and was planning to stab them to death, then went with the gun option because he decided that he didn't want to cause them any undue pain...

Sorry, but I really don't see how the gun is the culprit here. Rob Zombie and others that glamorize violence and have turned murder into entertainment for an entire generation are much more to blame for messing with this kid's head.
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  #1345  
Old 25.01.2013, 23:20
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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According to the transcript of the confession, he got a knife and was planning to stab them to death, then went with the gun option because he decided that he didn't want to cause them any undue pain...

Sorry, but I really don't see how the gun is the culprit here. Rob Zombie and others that glamorize violence and have turned murder into entertainment for an entire generation are much more to blame for messing with this kid's head.
If the grandfather didn't have a gun the house, the kid most likely never would have had access to one. His sister and mother would have had a much better chance surviving a knife attack than gun shots. They certainly would have been more able to defend themselves.

But yes, I also posted that because some people have claimed that violent/horror films, video games, etc. do not cause people to do such things. And while I realize that this kid was obviously pretty unstable in the first place, I do think the film is probably what pushed him over the edge. Even he himself admitted that.

Violence feeds violence, I guess...
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  #1346  
Old 26.01.2013, 00:03
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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If the grandfather didn't have a gun the house, the kid most likely never would have had access to one. His sister and mother would have had a much better chance surviving a knife attack than gun shots. They certainly would have been more able to defend themselves.

But yes, I also posted that because some people have claimed that violent/horror films, video games, etc. do not cause people to do such things. And while I realize that this kid was obviously pretty unstable in the first place, I do think the film is probably what pushed him over the edge. Even he himself admitted that.

Violence feeds violence, I guess...
...dunno about pushing over the edge, but the everydayness of violence and horror in "entertainment" must surely lower the threshold to acting on disturbed impulses.
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  #1347  
Old 26.01.2013, 00:20
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

How many people does the average TV viewer seen blown to bits and all in glorious color? Multiple thousands I've read. Every cop show, drama series or action flick's motivational viewing engine is violent death. People don't die of natural causes on TV. They take a bullet to save the disabled kid, then another for the priest, one more to the head to protect a nurse and if the body isn't riddled with enough holes, then they'll swagger over the precipice before hurtling 100 stories and impaling themselves on a lamp post parked next to a yellow NY cab which is splattered with ketchup to make it look "just like the real thing".

America loves it's violence. Part of the staple diet. The land of the free loves to make movies of dramatic deaths. And then they'll cut the body up into little pieces looking for evidence. Sign of the times.
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  #1348  
Old 27.01.2013, 19:56
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_bN4sRPeoM

I just watched this. What is Piers Morgen up to?
Another debate?

More ratings or does he want to be Mayor of California?
I wish he would mind his own business because this is really an American "problem" and not his.

Can you see his excited and overzealous interruptions during this debate?

Now I have a question. If an armed Policeman went on a rampage and killed many small children in a school, does it mean they will ban firearms from Policemen?

No? Why not?
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Old 27.01.2013, 20:02
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

A short article, but this is just . Who really thinks this is a good idea? Is it not obvious that by putting more guns into schools (in this manner), we're upping the risk not lowering it?? All it takes is one teacher to forget to lock up his or her weapon or for a student to attack a teacher or staff member with the express purpose of stealing their gun...I shudder to think of the consequences, liability, lawsuits, etc. that would follow.
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  #1350  
Old 27.01.2013, 20:10
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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A short article, but this is just . Who really thinks this is a good idea? Is it not obvious that by putting more guns into schools (in this manner), we're upping the risk not lowering it?? All it takes is one teacher to forget to lock up his or her weapon or for a student to attack a teacher or staff member with the express purpose of stealing their gun...I shudder to think of the consequences, liability, lawsuits, etc. that would follow.
Therefore any armed person must be well trained and be fully responsible for his firearm.
It is not the problem of having the firearm, it is the "dumbness" of the person who forgets to lock his weapon or allow himself to be attacked.

A group of ill-intentioned people can also ambush a policeman. So should we disallow the policeman to be armed?
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Old 27.01.2013, 20:17
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Therefore any armed person must be well trained and be fully responsible for his firearm.
It is not the problem of having the firearm, it is the "dumbness" of the person who forgets to lock his weapon or allow himself to be attacked.

A group of ill-intentioned people can also ambush a policeman. So should we disallow the policeman to be armed?
You've got a point. However I think it's not reasonable to compare a police officer to a teacher when it comes to the possible "need" to use weapons. I think there's far greater risk of a teacher making a mistake or being attacked by a group of kids (versus a cop), simply because the teacher's focus is teaching (not law enforcement).
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Old 27.01.2013, 20:21
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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You've got a point. However I think it's not reasonable to compare a police officer to a teacher when it comes to the possible "need" to use weapons. I think there's far greater risk of a teacher making a mistake or being attacked by a group of kids (versus a cop), simply because the teacher's focus is teaching (not law enforcement).
Thanks for the thanks.

Therefore some people are proposing employing fulltime armed guards in Schools.
There are positives and negatives to this proposal.
But lets face it, how can we safeguard our children in this year and time? Is there another quick solution?
By banning weapons? Really?

By disallowing teachers (who are willing and able) to carry arms perhaps openly perhaps concealed is as good as letting the wolves in through an open door of the 3 little pigs home.

As I said many times in many forums, when the US army and policemen disarms, the US civilians will also disarm. IF (a big if) they can successfully collect back millions of weapons in a given time.

Until then, it is "anything goes".

To think otherwise is just naive and a silly political game play. People who think like me, are not immune to the mindless deaths, please.
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  #1353  
Old 27.01.2013, 20:52
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

...perhaps it is only my observation, but it appears to me that the guns dialog is not based on the necessity to own and carry arms, rather "secretly" based on the desire to possess the illusion of power arms have grown to mistakenly hold, as exemplified by the police, military and criminals, and as glorified in "entertainment".

I don't know if it will ever come out, but I somehow have the hunch that the Newtown shooter's mother was trying to "make a man" out of her boy through the whole guns trip, which may have been a reason for killing her, and by extension the kids at the school to end his own torment of being forcibly "made a man".

Last edited by J_T; 27.01.2013 at 21:14.
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Old 27.01.2013, 21:11
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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I somehow have the hunch that the Newton shooter's mother was trying to "make a man" out of her boy through the whole guns trip
While I generally agree, it's "Newtown", not "Newton".

Sorry to be pedantic, but I grew up in the area.

Tom
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Old 27.01.2013, 21:14
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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While I generally agree, it's "Newtown", not "Newton".

Sorry to be pedantic, but I grew up in the area.

Tom
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Old 30.01.2013, 17:42
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/edito...en_coffin.html
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  #1357  
Old 01.02.2013, 23:07
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

Interesting semi-related story from Canada (a good 2000 km from the US border) :P) where a man shot at 5 home invaders, killing 3 who were shot in the back, one while injured on the ground--also shooting at those fleeing the scene. The gun was illegally modified

Initially charged with murder, the charges have been overturned.

Was it justifiable self defense? Tough call topical to the thread.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/01/31/chris-bishop/
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Old 02.02.2013, 00:41
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Interesting semi-related story from Canada (a good 2000 km from the US border) :P) where a man shot at 5 home invaders, killing 3 who were shot in the back, one while injured on the ground--also shooting at those fleeing the scene. The gun was illegally modified

Initially charged with murder, the charges have been overturned.

Was it justifiable self defense? Tough call topical to the thread.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/01/31/chris-bishop/
Indeed, a tough call. And another case of "Don't bring a knife to a gun-fight".
In his defense, one could argue that he feared that those who fled the scene might have come back with guns, too.
In any case, claiming a "blackout" because of fear for his life might have been an easy way out for both sides.
OTOH, one might argue that he might have seen a few too many re-transmissions of the "death wish" remakes and was really "asking for it".
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Old 02.02.2013, 01:08
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Indeed, a tough call. And another case of "Don't bring a knife to a gun-fight".
In his defense, one could argue that he feared that those who fled the scene might have come back with guns, too.
In any case, claiming a "blackout" because of fear for his life might have been an easy way out for both sides.
OTOH, one might argue that he might have seen a few too many re-transmissions of the "death wish" remakes and was really "asking for it".
It's an interesting case. Judging by what I've read, he may have fit the psychological profile of those who should kept away from weapons---stricter gun laws, banning etc. The weapon was legal and common in the area, but was illegally modified--falls under stricter gun laws as well.
It did seem that he acted with the gun at last resort--as they had him cornered from all sides. Self defense seems totally acceptable.
He seemed to go overboard on the 'self-defense', erring perhaps on the side they would return with guns, but potentially the police could have been there in time.

In the end, they might or might not have killed him--so the tally is 3 dead instead of potentially one, had no gun been involved. It then goes down to the 'right and wrong', good guy/bad guy opinion.

An excellent case to show that knee-jerk decisions about gun controls and safety are not the solution--time should be properly taken to make the best decisions for all people and all situations which may arise before specific decisions are made with respect to new gun laws.
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Old 02.02.2013, 15:13
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

Look at the facts;

The article indicates that there was bad blood between the participants already, but in this instance, the facts seem pretty clear

1. 5 against one.
2. They broke into his house with the intent to kill him or do him serious bodily harm.
3. He had already locked himself in and called the police for help.

What else could he have done at that point? would it have been better if he had said; "Okay, I don't want to hurt you guys, so I'm going to lay down my best means of defense and say pretty please don't kill me?"

It seems to me that once they put themselves in the role of attacker they chose to expose themselves to the possibility that heir victim was going to be able to fight back, with possible lethal consequences.

When the door was kicked down, he had every right to protect himself, and to fight back to the maximum extent that he was capable, including shooting at them as they were running away. Remember, unlike Switzerland, the US and Canada are BIG. The response time for police can be over an hour in some rural areas. and he was still outnumbered and on his own at that point.

In my opinion, they had no reasonable expectation of mercy once they had made their intent clear.

I know that it sounds cold, but I believe that if I were in his situation barricaded, cops already called, out numbered by 500%, guys kicking in locked doors to get to me, no idea when the police would show up, I would do the same thing.
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