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  #141  
Old 15.12.2012, 12:18
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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I don't think that taking away all the guns will solve this. I'm no expert on American culture, but one thing I see a lot of out there is narcissism. Feelings of superiority (often unfounded), overconfidence, lack of care or regard for your fellow citizen, public aggression, self promotion, extreme introspection etc.. Its a very individualistic culture, more so than Europe or Canada and I think that taken to its most extreme form, explosive violence may ensue. Of course these kinds of shootings are mercifully rare, so its not the only factor.
I think automats or weapons in general are a major scapegoat, too. You wipe out the guns,whatever type, lunatics will get busy making home made explosives. Narcissism sells well, so unless a culture stops caving in the cash god and stops promoting major commer ialism, it won't change. Even personal freedom, love, respect, individual responsibility have become marketable commodities, unless people quit worshipping the cash god and calculate all into financial values, prestige and street cred, it won't change. No antigun laws will make it better. And you will have susceptible freaks have their platform to offload.
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  #142  
Old 15.12.2012, 12:20
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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our gun violence issue in the US is an utter abomination and we should all be ashamed for not having addressed it decades ago.
The reality is that it wasn't a problem decades ago. The first mass shooting in the US was less than three decades ago, first school shooting barely one decade ago.

Yet guns have been around for hundreds of years, semi-automatic pistols, which are the staple of police forces around the world, for well over 100 years.

Guns are part of the problem, but not the root cause.

Tom
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  #143  
Old 15.12.2012, 12:27
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Just to clarify, the Second Amendment was drafted as a concession, because the founding fathers did not think the US should have a standing army. The irony is that the US has become the largest industrial-military complex in the world, and we glorify our professional soldiers as if they were martyrs for some grand cause.

The whole premise behind the Second Amendment went the way of the Dodo bird well over 100 years ago.
That's slightly tangential, but absolutely true. I was shocked at an NFL game during my last visit at the welcome a recruiting officer got to the field at half time.....everybody standing, saluting etc etc. It's very alien to me
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  #144  
Old 15.12.2012, 12:30
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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The reality is that it wasn't a problem decades ago. The first mass shooting in the US was less than three decades ago, first school shooting barely one decade ago.

Yet guns have been around for hundreds of years, semi-automatic pistols, which are the staple of police forces around the world, for well over 100 years.

Guns are part of the problem, but not the root cause.

Tom
And since when has it been life threatening to live in certain urban areas because of all the gang activities including random and not so random shootings on a daily basis? In certain areas families lose kids to these gun shots every day.
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  #145  
Old 15.12.2012, 12:40
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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And since when has it been life threatening to live in certain urban areas because of all the gang activities including random and not so random shootings on a daily basis? In certain areas families lose kids to these gun shots every day.
Thats alright it's only one a day, thats life
When it's a mass shooting the usual 'fake outpouring of grief' whilst doing nothing about it appears from every corner of the US.
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  #146  
Old 15.12.2012, 12:41
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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I think automats or weapons in general are a major scapegoat, too. You wipe out the guns,whatever type, lunatics will get busy making home made explosives.
This sort of complacency and absurd logic is so exasperating. It's a pitifully poor argument. With that reasoning, there should be no laws about anything. No dangerous equipment of any kind should be regulated.

If gun laws forced lunatics to "get busy making home-made explosives", then we should be delighted. The great majority would find their anger would have evaporated before they managed to find all the ingredients and work out how to do it. And loads of them would blow themselves up in the process. And even if they managed to create a viable explosive they would then have to try deploying it, which is another point at which most would fail.

In other words, the harder you make it for people , the less it will happen.

Do you not see that having a collection of portable automatic weapons under your bed or in your father's wardrobe makes these outrages something you can perpetrate in a matter of minutes or hours?

Why make it so easy?

Have the courage to confront your age-old prejudices and assumptions.
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  #147  
Old 15.12.2012, 12:54
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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The reality is that it wasn't a problem decades ago. The first mass shooting in the US was less than three decades ago, first school shooting barely one decade ago.

Yet guns have been around for hundreds of years, semi-automatic pistols, which are the staple of police forces around the world, for well over 100 years.

Guns are part of the problem, but not the root cause.

Tom
Point taken, but before we conclude anything, let's also have some statistics over this 30 or 100 year period showing the number of these semi-automatic weapons in private ownership in the US.

It's not whether or not these weapons exist (they will always exist); it's the number of them in circulation and their easy availability that we need to include in the analysis.
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  #148  
Old 15.12.2012, 13:06
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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Guns are part of the problem, but not the root cause.

Tom
But Tom, what's the root cause of anything? If someone is shot dead in a robbery, what is the root cause? A thousand things could be suggested from the very specific e.g. the wrong prescription medicine being taken, to the very general e.g. poverty or hunger. The fact is that the gun makes it easy for the robber to kill the person.

As a society we can try to do something about the root causes, but in the meantime we can make it much harder for people to turn these root causes into a major tragedy. As someone said in this or another thread, better to be robbed with a banana than a gun. The root cause of the robbery would remain the same but the consequences far less serious.
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  #149  
Old 15.12.2012, 13:06
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

I'm on the "blame the person, not the catalyst and tools" side of the debate, but there is really no excuse for how easy access to weapons, automatic and high-capacity rifles in particular, is in the States. To claim that it doesn't contribute in any way is just disingenuous.
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  #150  
Old 15.12.2012, 13:22
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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it's a lot harder to kill 20 kids and 5 grown ups, or an island full of teenagers, with a knife than a gun.
Sadly this logic seems to completely escape people who fight to keep gun laws, or who think they are a good idea in general. Yes, you can get a gun in any civilised Western country like the UK if you REALLY want to, but it's a damn site more difficult and you really feel like you would have to break the law to get one (ie mixing with very shady characters) and keep it (if someone see you have one you are royally screwed), rather than in countries like the USA where it's comparatively easy to get one and keep it without feeling like you are doing much wrong.

Having easy access to guns will result in more people having one who shouldn't, and increase the risk of innocent people getting hurt and atrocities being committed. It just seems like such simple, inescapable logic.

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The reality is that it wasn't a problem decades ago. The first mass shooting in the US was less than three decades ago, first school shooting barely one decade ago.

Yet guns have been around for hundreds of years, semi-automatic pistols, which are the staple of police forces around the world, for well over 100 years.

Guns are part of the problem, but not the root cause.

Tom
What a watery argument. Society has changed dramatically since 100 years ago, that shouldn't have to be pointed out to you. What matters is how guns are used now, and the steps we can take to reduce the problems. Taking away easy access to them and reducing the number of people who have them is one obvious step.
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  #151  
Old 15.12.2012, 13:49
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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Ryan Lanza is Adam Lanza's (the shooter) brother. He apparently updated facebook not knowing what had happened.

Mom was shot at home, not in the school. Dad is still alive and is Peter Lanza, a vice president of taxes for GE Energy Financial Services. Apparently they divorced recently. Apparently the 20 victims were his mother's kindergarten class.

The media showed the scene where the 20 parents were still hanging around waiting and....it's hard not to weep for everyone involved.
Whatever, good for Ryan L. that at least his dad is alive, so that he has not to through this ordeal alone.
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  #152  
Old 15.12.2012, 13:56
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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I think that the worst part is that the shooter is dead, shot hisself.
That means that there can be no closure, no punishment, we won't see him cringe in front of a court of law or do some crazy Breivik-nazi-salute-shit, no satisfaction, no seeing his head on a spike after being hung, drawn and quartered.
No no no, it is good that he no longer is alive ! This means that people cannot concentrate onto punishment aspects, but HAVE TO concentrate onto analysis and possible measures which can be taken based on as wide a consensus as possible.
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  #153  
Old 15.12.2012, 14:07
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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What about the malls, the cinemas and all sporting events? Tragedies happen there too.

The thing is THE challenge for the psychologists. Why ? Because if you at a certain point embark on a multiple-killing-action, you will always find a way to go ahead. In case of pistols or rifles, the difference does not matter really so much. When you have done the "loading" you can send out your shots very swiftly also with a NON-automatic weapon and by very swiflty I mean some 5 shots within a minute. If you drive a motor-car into an assembled group of people (bus station for example) you can kill up to a dozen people within 40 secons.
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  #154  
Old 15.12.2012, 14:13
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

People in this thread are throwing around some terms which they don't quite understand.

Automatic weapons fire as long as the trigger is held down, until the magazine is empty. These are very hard to obtain in the US. I don't recall any recent mass shootings in which automatic weapons were used, these guns are very rare.

Semi automatic means one bullet is fired per trigger pull, until the gun is empty. Most pistols and many hunting rifles amd shotguns are semi automatic.
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  #155  
Old 15.12.2012, 14:19
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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Automatic weapons fire as long as the trigger is held down, until the magazine is empty. These are very hard to obtain in the US. I don't recall any recent mass shootings in which automatic weapons were used, these guns are very rare.
However, it's pretty trivial to convert an AR15 or Uzi to full-automatic.

Tom
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  #156  
Old 15.12.2012, 14:24
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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People in this thread are throwing around some terms which they don't quite understand.

Automatic weapons fire as long as the trigger is held down, until the magazine is empty. These are very hard to obtain in the US. I don't recall any recent mass shootings in which automatic weapons were used, these guns are very rare.

Semi automatic means one bullet is fired per trigger pull, until the gun is empty. Most pistols and many hunting rifles amd shotguns are semi automatic.
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However, it's pretty trivial to convert an AR15 or Uzi to full-automatic.

Tom
Big picture, anybody?
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  #157  
Old 15.12.2012, 14:40
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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People in this thread are throwing around some terms which they don't quite understand.

Automatic weapons fire as long as the trigger is held down, until the magazine is empty. These are very hard to obtain in the US. I don't recall any recent mass shootings in which automatic weapons were used, these guns are very rare.

Semi automatic means one bullet is fired per trigger pull, until the gun is empty. Most pistols and many hunting rifles amd shotguns are semi automatic.
OK thanks for the info -- I'm guilty. I don't what these terms mean in detail as I've no experience here, and never been tempted to try to find out. But anyway, they are just shorthand for (I'm presuming) weapons originally designed for military or specialised use that seem to have become easily available for domestic urban possession.
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  #158  
Old 15.12.2012, 14:51
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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Big picture, anybody?
So should I not correct utterly wrong information like "it's too easy to get automatic weapons in the US."?

Part of the big picture is correct information. While it might be inconvenient to let facts get in the way of smug british pontificating and generalizing, they are essential in arriving at an informed conclusion.

My firm opinion that guns need to be far more strongly regulated is based on a basic knowledge of the way the US government works, as well as the extent of existing US gun laws. I don't think it's too much to ask that people spend 10 minutes reading wikipedia before kindly informing Americans how to fix their society.

Do you realize it that it might be just a little frustrating for the Americans among us who are deeply affected by this to hear a bunch of people spout off about Americans being this way, and how Americans should do this, and no, this is the real problem with America and blah blah blah, all mere hours after this all happened...?
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Old 15.12.2012, 14:55
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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The reality is that it wasn't a problem decades ago. The first mass shooting in the US was less than three decades ago, first school shooting barely one decade ago.

Yet guns have been around for hundreds of years, semi-automatic pistols, which are the staple of police forces around the world, for well over 100 years.

Guns are part of the problem, but not the root cause.

Tom
All true, but the type of weapon available 30 years ago was much different. Also, contrary to popular belief, gun ownership was much more heavily regulated 30 years ago.
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Old 15.12.2012, 14:55
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

Actually a full auto is by far the less dangerous, the mentioned AR 15 is a development of the M 16 and although a semi it could in theory fire 900 rounds a minute.
It has a 30 round mag and would be empty in two seconds on full auto...
...Give it a think.
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