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  #1661  
Old 12.09.2014, 17:58
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Ive only ever used, erm, seen.. pictures.. of female blow up dolls with that facial expression...
No, sometimes the male ones have 'em too.

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  #1662  
Old 12.09.2014, 18:16
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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at least its still vaguely on topic, still shooting
I had to shoot the last one - she was always mocking me and had an inflated ego

now I just draw a face on the pillow...

Back to the topic, the sporting argument for guns is pretty weak in terms of a justification. I grew up target shooting (circular targets, not human silhouettes), used to love it, was a great shot, yadayada. But they're still incredibly dangerous. Lawn darts were a popular game, never used to intentionally harm anyone AFAIK, and nobody complained when those got banned.

The governmental tyranny argument is a good one, as you can't trust those bastards for a minute. People shouldn't be banned from having guns, but the underlying violence of american culture needs to seriously addressed before i'd ever feel comfortable being around a bunch of gun-toting individualists.

After a few years out of the states, I returned and on the first night there found myself watching an NHL playoff game with some friends. I commented that I'd forgotten how violent american sports can be, and they looked at me like I was crazy. I mean, a sanctioned fistfight in the middle of the game is just sport, right?

The video games are full of violence. Most of the primetime tv shows center on violence (an incredibly stupid show called Dexter that I found my somewhat elderly parents watching is a good example). Hip-hop culture often puts violence on a pedestal. And, most of all, the country's economy is fueled by war. With just 4.5% of the global population, the US accounts for nearly 37% of global military spending. Almost 4 times as much $ per year as china spends on it's military.

Until the population learns how to be less violent, more gun control measures are needed in some way. Less war, more education. Maybe a little less income inequality would help as well...
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  #1663  
Old 12.09.2014, 18:18
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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No, sometimes the male ones have 'em too.

(Party in the front! Party in the back!)
What do you do, use him as a receptacle for your molding migros carrots? Does he go flaccid if you don't keep him pumped up? Wheres the valve?

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  #1664  
Old 12.09.2014, 21:52
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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...the current American concept of gun ownership is completely inapposite to the concepts of "freedom" and "liberty" upon which the country was purportedly founded.
Can you support this assertion with citations from the published debates and arguments of the founding era? (If not, kindly stop with this historically-ignorant trolling tripe.)

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...the Second Amendment in no way provides for a right to bear arms independent of service in a militia, the concept of an "individual" rather than "collective" right to bear arms is a fiction of Supreme Court judicial legislation...
Can you support this assertion with citations from the published debates and arguments of the founding era? (If not, kindly stop with this historically-ignorant trolling tripe.)

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...Do you realize that, in many parts of the US, you can legally own a gun as young as 18???...
In all of the US you can own a gun much younger than 18. Many youngsters are given their first firearms by their parents well before their 18th birthdays. (Buying a firearm is a completely different matter.)

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And we know this exactly how?
Because of archeology.
The science of archeology deals with history, not motives. To pretend to know that knives were first used for millions of years before a human conceived of using one for murder is an irrational denial of the historical record of human nature to date.
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  #1665  
Old 12.09.2014, 22:10
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Can you support this assertion with citations from the published debates and arguments of the founding era? (If not, kindly stop with this historically-ignorant trolling tripe.)
you're a bright dude, read the Second Amendment as ratified by the States and tell me what you think:

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

you do not need to be lawyer (although I am one) to know how to construe the importance of the comma.

P.S. I am neither "historically-ignorant" nor "trolling", considering I spent a full 2 years of my life studying Constitutional Law. although all that is really necessary is basic reading comprehension that is native to English.
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  #1666  
Old 12.09.2014, 23:42
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
The Constitution was written in the shadow of the Revolutionary War -- during a time when a "well-regulated militia" was thought to be necessary for protection and before the US military was fully established.

It was also written during a time when there were no drug wars, crowded urban areas, mass school shootings and when semi-automatic weapons didn't exist.

Times have changed, and I think the Constitution needs to reflect that. Were it not for amendments to the Constitution, we'd all still be legally allowed to own slaves.
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  #1667  
Old 13.09.2014, 00:18
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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The Constitution was written in the shadow of the Revolutionary War -- during a time when a "well-regulated militia" was thought to be necessary for protection and before the US military was fully established.

It was also written during a time when there were no drug wars, crowded urban areas, mass school shootings and when semi-automatic weapons didn't exist.

Times have changed, and I think the Constitution needs to reflect that. Were it not for amendments to the Constitution, we'd all still be legally allowed to own slaves.
which is exactly why the founders provided for a mechanism by which the Constitution can be amended - by the people, however, not the courts.



I believe that a well-regulated militia is still necessary, and gun ownership in connection with military service is still likewise necessary. same as the issue is generally handled in Switzerland, frankly. but to have both the world's largest standing army AND the world's most heavily-armed, non-military citizen populace is more than a little absurd.
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  #1668  
Old 13.09.2014, 19:54
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

Somewhat related to this thread, I'd love if Vermont would become a semi-auton. shared jurisdiction between Canada and the US like Andorra is between Spain and France, that way Vermonters could keep their loose firearm laws but have a liberal outlook like much of Canada, just a pipe dream I guess.

For border issues, Vermont would have their own inspectors etc.
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  #1669  
Old 13.09.2014, 22:02
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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you're a bright dude, read the Second Amendment as ratified by the States and tell me what you think:

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

you do not need to be lawyer (although I am one) to know how to construe the importance of the comma.

P.S. I am neither "historically-ignorant" nor "trolling", considering I spent a full 2 years of my life studying Constitutional Law. although all that is really necessary is basic reading comprehension that is native to English.
So do you have compelling (if not unequivocal) historical evidence to the effect that the framers and the ratifiers of the Second Amendment had a "collective right" rather than an "individual right" in mind?
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  #1670  
Old 15.09.2014, 10:14
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Yet another accident with a gun.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-29168777

The fact that a teacher has to carry a gun at school is a very sad statement of the US in general these days.
You're 23 posts too late.

Did you you get this info from The Local?

Tom
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  #1671  
Old 15.09.2014, 10:17
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

Just out of interest, have any of the North Americans here changed their views on guns since moving to Europe?

Either way?
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  #1672  
Old 15.09.2014, 12:18
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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So do you have compelling (if not unequivocal) historical evidence to the effect that the framers and the ratifiers of the Second Amendment had a "collective right" rather than an "individual right" in mind?
what does it matter, either way? the Constitution is a contract, it says what it says, and I am not at all a fan of the use of parol evidence in the construction of a contract.
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  #1673  
Old 15.09.2014, 12:31
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

Islamic Extremists: People who follow a document written many hundreds of years ago which is outdated and negatively impacts innocents

US Pro-Gun Lobbyists: People who follow a document written many hundreds of years ago which is outdated and negatively impacts innocents

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  #1674  
Old 15.09.2014, 13:09
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Islamic Extremists: People who follow a document written many hundreds of years ago which is outdated and negatively impacts innocents

US Pro-Gun Lobbyists: People who follow a document written many hundreds of years ago which is outdated and negatively impacts innocents

actually, the pro-gun lobby in the US is following recent judicial legislation rather than a document written hundreds of years ago.
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Old 15.09.2014, 14:01
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Just out of interest, have any of the North Americans here changed their views on guns since moving to Europe?

Either way?

Prior to moving to Europe I had never seen a firearm other than on the belt of an official police officer.

It was very shocking and intimidating at first to see the airport police with rifles and especially the young conscript with the assault rifles on the train--Even walking around the university campus in street clothes with one strapped on their back.

My opinion has changed from 'guns are bad and should be banned' to, guns are fine as long as proper regulation, attitudes and conduct are observed. How those points can be successfully implemented in North America? That is the big question with no easy answer.

Canada attemped a 'gun registry' system a few years back and it's widely considered a complete disaster and huge waste of government spending with no benefits.
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  #1676  
Old 15.09.2014, 16:14
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

Growing up in CA, in a house with an unlocked closet full of hunting rifles and shotguns, I always had respect for the weapons and learned to shoot when I was a kid. Grew up owning BB and pellet guns but never bought a "real" one for myself.

First time I ever saw automatic weapons was in the airport in Brussels in '85 right before and after the Rome/Vienna airport attacks. Police in the US were not allowed to carry (para)military type weapons in those days.

Chemmie - I agree with you that "guns are fine as long as proper regulation, attitudes and conduct are observed." Switzerland is a good example of a society that coexists with guns. There is a cultural issue in the US right now that is quite sick, and I am not sure that anyone knows what it is, let alone how to address it. Banning guns (in the US) is simply NOT going to happen. But getting at a root problem might be possible...

Moving to Europe has not changed my mind at all... but probably helped me to see that the problem lies with US culture (thanks to CH, for this).

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Prior to moving to Europe I had never seen a firearm other than on the belt of an official police officer.

It was very shocking and intimidating at first to see the airport police with rifles and especially the young conscript with the assault rifles on the train--Even walking around the university campus in street clothes with one strapped on their back.

My opinion has changed from 'guns are bad and should be banned' to, guns are fine as long as proper regulation, attitudes and conduct are observed. How those points can be successfully implemented in North America? That is the big question with no easy answer.

Canada attemped a 'gun registry' system a few years back and it's widely considered a complete disaster and huge waste of government spending with no benefits.
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  #1677  
Old 15.09.2014, 16:46
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

I have friends who shoot skeet and collect guns, including automatic weapons (an uzi, i think). I have loads of relatives who hunt. My bil hunts a lot, is very careful with guns, keeps them locked up and my nephew and sister learned all sorts of gun safety. The first time i ever saw an automatic weapon was in the Paris train station and the amsterdam airport around 1996 or so. No way do i want to have or be near a gun.

That said, while I understand guns for sport, collecting, hunting, i don't think many people are really qualified to own a hand gun for self protection, and i don't see why an average person needs to the ability to spray a full round of ammunition in a matter of seconds. There's so much carelessness among way too many people.

So, libertarians may groan, but i believe that guns need to be regulated, education is important and access must be controlled. I know lots of responsible folk, but there is just so much stupidity happening in the US. I also think the NRA is full of crap, pandering to gun manufacturers, not gun owners.

My attitude is pretty much the same as it's always been.
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  #1678  
Old 15.09.2014, 17:03
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Switzerland is a good example of a society that coexists with guns.
Maybe...but last I checked the murder rate and particularly (naturally) the firearms murder rate was still significantly higher in Switzerland than other Western European countries with more restrictive gun laws.
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  #1679  
Old 15.09.2014, 17:32
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Maybe...but last I checked the murder rate and particularly (naturally) the firearms murder rate was still significantly higher in Switzerland than other Western European countries with more restrictive gun laws.

The number of "suicides with own gun" is relatively high in CH, AFAIK.
(On a per-capita basis).
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  #1680  
Old 15.09.2014, 17:51
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

You may be correct - I do not have exact stats. Let's try Finland!

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Maybe...but last I checked the murder rate and particularly (naturally) the firearms murder rate was still significantly higher in Switzerland than other Western European countries with more restrictive gun laws.
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