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  #1681  
Old 15.09.2014, 21:41
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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add a couple hookers, an eight ball of blow, some oversized sunglasses and a mid-70's convertible and you can dial-up your very own Hunter S. Thompson Getaway Weekend. fantastic.



just the picture alone on TripAdvisor is enough to be embarrassing.


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Maybe...but last I checked the murder rate and particularly (naturally) the firearms murder rate was still significantly higher in Switzerland than other Western European countries with more restrictive gun laws.
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The number of "suicides with own gun" is relatively high in CH, AFAIK.
(On a per-capita basis).
Some facts (be aware that some of these numbers are notoriously imprecise and generally hard to compare for various reasons):

Firearms per population

US: 90'000 per 100'000 residents
CH: 45'700 per 100'000 residents
FI: 45'300 per 100'000 residents
AT: 30'400 per 100'000 residents
DE: 30'300 per 100'000 residents
UK: 6'200 per 100'000 residents*

*only England & Wales

List of firearm related homicides per population

US: 3.6 per year and 100'000 residents
CH: 0.52 per year and 100'000 residents
FI: 0.26 per year and 100'000 residents
AT: 0.18 per year and 100'000 residents
DE: 0.2 per year and 100'000 residents
UK: 0.04 per year and 100'000 residents

List of firearm related suicide per population (same link)
US: 6.3 per year and 100'000 residents
CH: 3.15 per year and 100'000 residents
FI: 3.34 per year and 100'000 residents
AT: 2.68 per year and 100'000 residents
DE: 0.94 per year and 100'000 residents
UK: 0.18 per year and 100'000 residents

Total suicides per population
US: 12 per year and 100'000 residents
CH: 11.1 per year and 100'000 residents
FI: 16 per year and 100'000 residents
AT: 15.45 per year and 100'000 residents
DE: 9.9 per year and 100'000 residents
UK: 11.8 per year and 100'000 residents

Total of intentional homicides per population

US: 4.7 per year and 100'000 residents
CH: 0.6 per year and 100'000 residents
FI: 1.6 per year and 100'000 residents
AT: 0.9 per year and 100'000 residents
DE: 0.8 per year and 100'000 residents
UK: 1.0 per year and 100'000 residents
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Last edited by 11HoursInTheTinPan; 15.09.2014 at 21:47. Reason: Added Finland
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  #1682  
Old 16.09.2014, 07:54
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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...the Constitution is a contract...
What kind of "contract" is legitimate, when it has never been signed by anybody — not even its authors? Food for thought.
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Old 16.09.2014, 08:37
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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What kind of "contract" is legitimate, when it has never been signed by anybody — not even its authors? Food for thought.
No requirement in most legal systems for a contract to be signed.
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  #1684  
Old 16.09.2014, 11:04
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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No requirement in most legal systems for a contract to be signed.
In the US, unsigned contracts are unenforceable by the courts with few exceptions.
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Old 16.09.2014, 11:33
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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In the US, unsigned contracts are unenforceable by the courts with few exceptions.
Actually that's not at all true. Each time you buy something, for example, you're entering into a contract with the seller. It may not be a formal written contract, but a contract it is nonetheless, and comes with legally-defined terms and conditions on each party.
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Old 16.09.2014, 20:22
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Actually that's not at all true. Each time you buy something, for example, you're entering into a contract with the seller. It may not be a formal written contract, but a contract it is nonetheless, and comes with legally-defined terms and conditions on each party.
I was referring to deliberately written legal contracts, not an implied contract resulting from an action. The former, when signed, are enforceable by the courts; the latter not so much.
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  #1687  
Old 16.09.2014, 20:36
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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I was referring to deliberately written legal contracts, not an implied contract resulting from an action. The former, when signed, are enforceable by the courts; the latter not so much.
what Spooner wrote makes sense if you want to reject the theory of social contract entirely and hope for some kind of utopia, but we are several centuries too far down the beaten path for that. you accept the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights, when you accept citizenship (performance has always been construed as an acceptance of an offer). we can debate whether or not there has been a breach of contract during the course of the last 240 some-odd years (I have very strong personal views on the issue), which would of course permit a refusal to perform until the breach is cured, but debating the underlying enforceability of the contract is not worth the calories.
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  #1688  
Old 16.09.2014, 23:50
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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I was referring to deliberately written legal contracts, not an implied contract resulting from an action.
SO why make a blanket statement if you know it's not true? The alleged contract under discussion would also tend to fall into that latter category, and AFAICT you're suggesting that it's unenforceable because it's not a sighed written contract. The fact remains that by a huge margin the majority of actual contracts taking place any given day in the USA are also unwritten and unsigned, and are very much enforceable in law.

So do you still assert, in this context, that most unsigned contracts are unenforceable in law?
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  #1689  
Old 17.09.2014, 18:02
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

Let's arm the Universities:
http://chronicle.com/article/On-Camp...nchers/148749/

And Jim Jefferies about Gun Control:

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  #1690  
Old 17.09.2014, 18:50
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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So do you still assert, in this context, that most unsigned contracts are unenforceable in law?
Yes I do. An unwritten (and therefore unsigned) "contract" is only rarely enforceable (and therefore rarely enforced) by a court of law. The "contract" originally in question in the context of this discussion is a written contract signed by nobody.

Last edited by Texaner; 19.09.2014 at 00:10. Reason: clarity
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  #1691  
Old 17.09.2014, 19:27
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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what Spooner wrote makes sense if you want to reject the theory of social contract entirely and hope for some kind of utopia...
From where I sit, "making sense" has nothing to do with rejecting or accepting a "social contract" (care to define that?) or hoping for a utopia. It has to do with questioning the wisdom and logic of letting people rule each other via secret ballot and contracts for which no persons take any personal responsibility whatsoever. That's the essential thrust of the cited essay.

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...you accept the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights, when you accept citizenship...
Persons born into this "citizenship" (read: obligation to abide by the unsigned "contract") without having a choice in the matter, automatically become subject to the whims of others via secret ballot ("performance" or "acceptance" were not optional), while the (secret ballot) others take no personal responsibility for either enforcing the "contract" or any of their subsequent decisions taken under the "contract" over the years, due to the fact that their identities are shielded by the secret ballot.

As I've said, US courts commonly decline to accept cases involving unsigned written contracts, yet the "contract" that allegedly serves as the "law of the land" was unsigned from the outset and "ratified" by secret ballot, so that no one has ever been personally responsible for its institution or enforcement or the institution or enforcement of anything subsequently voted on by secret ballot under its purported dominion.

It isn't clear why you mention that you "have very strong personal views on the issue" — but I would venture to guess that many of us have very strong personal views on the issue, so you're certainly not alone.

My chief purpose in bringing up Spooner's analysis is to point out that our acceptance of the status quo interpretation is based largely on our unwillingness to question the legitimacy of contemporary states and the so-called "contracts" upon which they have been erected. Spooner had a knack for recognizing and documenting the logical gaping holes in status quo political constructs. His writing is worthwhile food for thought, even if it makes us uncomfortable.
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Last edited by Texaner; 23.09.2014 at 23:53.
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  #1692  
Old 19.09.2014, 14:23
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/zentrals...-Bein-24193326

"accidents" happen when guns are involved in Switzerland as well
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  #1693  
Old 22.09.2014, 10:31
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Just out of interest, have any of the North Americans here changed their views on guns since moving to Europe?

Either way?

Yes, most Swiss natives I know own guns. I've seen teenagers on bicycles with semi-automatics strapped on their backs, going reporting for military service. Convinces me that guns in themselves are not the cause of crimes.
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  #1694  
Old 22.09.2014, 11:26
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Yes, most Swiss natives I know own guns. I've seen teenagers on bicycles with semi-automatics strapped on their backs, going reporting for military service. Convinces me that guns in themselves are not the cause of crimes.
You do realise they are only carrying the weapons and not the ammunition?

If everyone in the U.S. carried and stored their guns without access to ammunition then they'd be no death and maiming from shooting there too?

(apart from those resulting from the actions some brainless range instructors).
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  #1695  
Old 22.09.2014, 11:27
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

[QUOTE=Tom1234;2243795]You do realise they are only carrying the weapons and not the ammunition?

QUOTE]
Not entirely...
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  #1696  
Old 22.09.2014, 11:31
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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You do realise they are only carrying the weapons and not the ammunition?
Not entirely...
Please explain...
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  #1697  
Old 22.09.2014, 11:34
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Please explain...
When any male of age to do their military service, brings home his weapon, he also brings home a clip of ammo that is counted bullet by bullet. When he returns to do his service time, he brings his clip back, and they count out the bullets and check serial numbers.

That's what I mean.
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  #1698  
Old 22.09.2014, 11:43
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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When any male of age to do their military service, brings home his weapon, he also brings home a clip of ammo that is counted bullet by bullet. When he returns to do his service time, he brings his clip back, and they count out the bullets and check serial numbers.

That's what I mean.
That's been changed in 2007 dear, do keep up
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  #1699  
Old 22.09.2014, 12:39
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Yes, most Swiss natives I know own guns. I've seen teenagers on bicycles with semi-automatics strapped on their backs, going reporting for military service. Convinces me that guns in themselves are not the cause of crimes.
The standard service rifles are automatics, not semis.
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Old 22.09.2014, 12:40
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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That's been changed in 2007 dear, do keep up
Um, so that doesn't explain the bullets I saw
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