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  #161  
Old 15.12.2012, 14:57
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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the type of weapon available 30 years ago was much different
A semi-automatic pistol is still pretty much the same as 30 years ago, and even those of 100 years ago.

Tom
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  #162  
Old 15.12.2012, 14:57
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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So should I not correct utterly wrong information like "it's too easy to get automatic weapons in the US."?

Part of the big picture is correct information. While it might be inconvenient to let facts get in the way of smug british pontificating and generalizing, they are essential in arriving at an informed conclusion.

My firm opinion that guns need to be far more strongly regulated is based on a basic knowledge of the way the US government works, as well as the extent of existing US gun laws. I don't think it's too much to ask that people spend 10 minutes reading wikipedia before kindly informing Americans how to fix their society.

Do you realize it that it might be just a little frustrating for the Americans among us who are deeply affected by this to hear a bunch of people spout off about Americans being this way, and how Americans should do this, and no, this is the real problem with America and blah blah blah, all mere hours after this all happened...?
I understand....but equally think that starting a debate (which didn't come) about who knows most about how easy it is to convert one gun into a more deadly version is missing the point about the lethality of them all.

And frankly, I think that US citizens TEND (not all) to be so deeply ingrained in the minute detail of the issue....of what the framers meant, of where the commas should be, of whether Scalia should have made the judgement he did....that maybe getting a fresh look from the outside might help
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Old 15.12.2012, 15:05
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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......smug british pontificating and generalizing......
Ooops. Shot yerself in the foot there, guv.
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  #164  
Old 15.12.2012, 15:11
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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Ooops. Shot yerself in the foot there, guv.
There's plenty of examples in this thread if you care to look, I think this is entirely the wrong time and place to vent some anti-american sentiment. (Not referring to you.)

Last edited by Principia Discordia; 16.12.2012 at 23:21.
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  #165  
Old 15.12.2012, 15:58
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

I can't imagine it would make any difference whether the murderer had an M16 or a .38 revolver, nobody as far as I know was shooting at him, and small kids are fairly easy to kill. So we don't need to discuss the benefits of the weapon's rate of fire.

What matters is to get the mind set around the idea of learning to leave home without a gun in the trunk of your car. Without the need for gun shops in every town. Just to get used to the idea that you have not been threatened by a gun carrying citizen on any day this year, or last year....

Did you see the film Columbine? I am sure you have, if not go and see it again. He checks the situation in Chicago and then crossed over to Canada where they even leave their front doors unlocked. What's his name? Mike something, he diagnosed collective paranoia.
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  #166  
Old 15.12.2012, 15:59
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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People in this thread are throwing around some terms which they don't quite understand.

Automatic weapons fire as long as the trigger is held down, until the magazine is empty. These are very hard to obtain in the US. I don't recall any recent mass shootings in which automatic weapons were used, these guns are very rare.

Semi automatic means one bullet is fired per trigger pull, until the gun is empty. Most pistols and many hunting rifles amd shotguns are semi automatic.
Yes, I did that. Love when people being "caught" on technicalities. I remember time when actually it was allowed (Clinton era) to buy and own assault rifles, and there were major disputes whether call that ammunition box: clips or magazine. It was like what differ one from another. That is one of many cases when "they" also turn the law and the legality into bizarre; or more precisely when they turn the law (interpreting it as they wish) in the tool of violence against a population.

Does it matter if (http://us.gizmodo.com/5933021/guy-ge...-instead-of-tv) this is auto or semi? It is not crucial question. For me that's Small Arms. The question is: Why anybody need it, is beyond me.

300.000.000 pieces of firearms are in possession of US citizens. To protect themselves, argument goes!? Against who?

It is argument of paranoids and warmongers.


Newtown shootings: if not now, when is the time to talk about gun control?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...gs-gun-control

Last edited by lavazza; 15.12.2012 at 16:56.
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  #167  
Old 15.12.2012, 16:08
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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I think it has a lot to do with US culture. Lots of things - isolation of people who are different, learning that the only way to deal with things is via violence. This highly valued "individualism" that can lead to more isolation. Mental illnesses. I'm not quite sure why it happens in the US more than, say here. In some ways, the US is a very supportive place in some situations, but in others, not, especially if you're different.

These shooters were all young men, isolated, "odd", maybe depressed. I guess we have to figure out if there is a common ground. This particular one seemed to have some anger issues too. But in the US, we seem to be too slow to intervene when people have problems. It can't happen to my kid, he'll be ok, its my family's business.

I don't understand why people need semiautomatic weapons. I've been dragged grudgingly into the camp where some gun ownership is ok - too many relatives in the US hunt and are responsible.
Yeah, listening to some of the people in the neighborhood they interviewed last night, I felt like throwing something at the TV..."goth", "didn't play well with others", "quiet", "really smart" as if wearing black and not wanting to be with the 'in' crowd somehow makes you a mass murderer in training. Having grown up in the midwest...anything 'different' is weird. It's also a bit surreal having this happen in a very affluent community like Newtown, but I suppose when you have nothing else to sturm und drang over, it turns unto to your parents.

The telling point, though, is the older brother who, upon hearing about his brother connected to the school shooting, commented 'my mother is dead' so...the family knew something wasn't all together right with the boy. How can you know that things are so wrong, though, until something like this happens?

I wish the focus would be less about guns, and more about identifying these kids before they get to the guns as I suppose locking up all strange white guys between the ages of 20 and 40 would be less practical....
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  #168  
Old 15.12.2012, 16:24
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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Yeah, listening to some of the people in the neighborhood they interviewed last night, I felt like throwing something at the TV..."goth", "didn't play well with others", "quiet", "really smart" as if wearing black and not wanting to be with the 'in' crowd somehow makes you a mass murderer in training. Having grown up in the midwest...anything 'different' is weird. It's also a bit surreal having this happen in a very affluent community like Newtown, but I suppose when you have nothing else to sturm und drang over, it turns unto to your parents.

The telling point, though, is the older brother who, upon hearing about his brother connected to the school shooting, commented 'my mother is dead' so...the family knew something wasn't all together right with the boy. How can you know that things are so wrong, though, until something like this happens?

I wish the focus would be less about guns, and more about identifying these kids before they get to the guns as I suppose locking up all strange white guys between the ages of 20 and 40 would be less practical....
Agreed. So this was a tragedy waiting to happen. However, for me, the real tragedy was in allowing a young man of frail and impaired mental and emotional judgement accessibility to such lethal guns, or any guns, for that matter.
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  #169  
Old 15.12.2012, 16:28
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

trying to make explosives is a hazardous activity. a lot of people are injured trying to play with explosive material, and many professional bomb makers are missing limbs, eyes, etc.

so, not as easy as it sounds.
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  #170  
Old 15.12.2012, 16:28
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings



Note the difference between CH and US.
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  #171  
Old 15.12.2012, 16:29
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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All true, but the type of weapon available 30 years ago was much different. Also, contrary to popular belief, gun ownership was much more heavily regulated 30 years ago.
Disagree and disagree.
JC
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  #172  
Old 15.12.2012, 16:35
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

The gun used to kill the kids was reported to shot 60 bullets per second. Now why on earth a citizen should even be allowed to buy these??
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  #173  
Old 15.12.2012, 16:36
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

Yes, Switzerland has similar suicide and accident rates to the US, but the US has more murders,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

United States 9.00 2.98 5.75 0.27 2008-2010 OAS 2011[8]
Switzerland . 6.4 0.58 5.61 0.13 1994 Krug 1998[11]
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Old 15.12.2012, 16:40
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Well, late teens, early 20's is the age when serious disorders develop. No one wants to believe that there is a problem in their family, that their kid might have a mental illness. And mental illnesses are still so stigmatized. When these sorts of conditions develop, the person with the problem can become increasingly estranged from those close. So i don't know... Should we screen teenage boys (and girls) who are isolated from the larger community? Somewhere there has to be a balance between invasion of privacy and identifying those at risk. And if someone is identified at risk, then what?
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  #175  
Old 15.12.2012, 16:44
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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Agreed. So this was a tragedy waiting to happen. However, for me, the real tragedy was in allowing a young man of frail and impaired mental and emotional judgement accessibility to such lethal guns, or any guns, for that matter.
I stumbled upon this:

http://blackamazon.tumblr.com/post/3...t-about-mental

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NO.

I have

just no

It’s not about ” mental illness”

Folks struggle with mental illness everyday and are more likely to be the victims than perpetrators of violence.

The resolution isn’t about figuring out new ways to have folks expose precious babies to GUNPLAY

No

Jesus lord .
I agree with him, absolutely.

I read last night journalist described mother as a "rigid". One can only speculate what's that mean.

Or, I have a clear picture how the "media" and the "system" are going to portray the killer.

http://gma.yahoo.com/james-holmes-go...opstories.html
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  #176  
Old 15.12.2012, 16:59
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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Semi automatic means one bullet is fired per trigger pull, until the gun is empty. Most pistols and many hunting rifles amd shotguns are semi automatic.
But using a semi automatic, it is still easier & faster to unload the magazine than a standard revolver, as well as being more accurate for the subsequent shots that follow the first. You also have between 8-30 rounds available in very quick succession depending on the magazine used compared to a revolver's 6.
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  #177  
Old 15.12.2012, 17:07
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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But using a semi automatic, it is still easier & faster to unload the magazine than a standard revolver.
True, but if you are using speed loaders and know what you are doing, it's not much of a difference.

Tom
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  #178  
Old 15.12.2012, 17:13
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Re: Connecticut primary school shootings

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I read last night journalist described mother as a "rigid". One can only speculate what's that mean.
Oh, that was some BS based on an interview with a housefrau neighbor who described the mom as houseproud and liking things 'just so'. If being a neurotic type-a working mom was a precursor to mass murder, I would have built several a-bombs and started WWIII well before my 18th birthday. It's another blind alley that folks will jump on and distract from the real issue....the kid was psycho and nobody did anything about it until he shot up an elementary school.

There was a book made into a movie recently with Tilda Swinton (love her) called "We Need to Talk About Kevin" which seems like life imitating fiction...
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  #179  
Old 15.12.2012, 17:19
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

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The gun used to kill the kids was reported to shot 60 bullets per second. Now why on earth a citizen should even be allowed to buy these??
No-one can pull the trigger 60x/second!

Even 4x/second is quite fast.

Tom
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  #180  
Old 15.12.2012, 17:34
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Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?

An angry, delusional person without a gun is just an angry, delusional person. An angry, delusional person with a gun can become a murderer. The children in CT and Kayla didn't die because a guy was pissed-off or mentally ill. They died because they were pissed off or mentally ill AND had a gun.

I really hope Obama's statement about taking action no matter the politics is true.
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