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  #1841  
Old 10.05.2015, 20:53
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Not really, its only a question of degree. Lack of armed citizenry in most of Europe seems to work OK.
Actualy, as we all know, Switzerland has got a lot of armed citizens, with Army weapons being stored at home...

But it's really about the mindset of people.

And to be perfectly clear, if you don't trust the "state" you're living in, you'll sooner or later end up in a situation that resembles that of Italy or Greece these days: nobody gives a damn about the state, unless it doles out money.
When there is no civil society (like what you can see in Russia these days), the state barely exists beyond a very strong central control and often starts getting corrupted top-down.
Political freedom cannot exist in such a scenario, almost by definition.

The situation in the US is different - but ultimately if you feel you have to arm yourself against the state, that is a very slippery slope.
The modern, western society centers around two principles: consensus and the state monopoly of power. If we give up these, we end up in a very bad place.
In fact, we pretty much knows how it ends:
In Germany in the late 1920 and early 1930, the state was unable to enforce the monopoly of power and the forces opposing each other weren't interested in consensus at all.
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  #1842  
Old 10.05.2015, 21:10
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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i have all the data worldwide for both sides and fact checked all the information (for a film production) and can tell you that the majority of the anti-gun propaganda is fictional or manipulated.

here is a fact that is either not reported on or push to the back. Every mass shooting in the us was done by a individual that was on one or more prescribed medications that had as a known side effect of producing suicidal and or homicidal thoughts. Many of these drugs also eliminate the inhibition that most of us have to actually carry out these thoughts. Food for thought.
Source? Where are your data? What studies do you rely on?
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Actual data. You are referencing articles, just proving my point.
As if you yourself provided any kind of backup for your claims.
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i make blanket statements
FTFY
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  #1843  
Old 10.05.2015, 21:47
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Actualy, as we all know, Switzerland has got a lot of armed citizens, with Army weapons being stored at home...

But it's really about the mindset of people.

And to be perfectly clear, if you don't trust the "state" you're living in, you'll sooner or later end up in a situation that resembles that of Italy or Greece these days:.
I suppose if you live in a country such as Spain or Italy whose people have a fondest for fascism and dictators then an armed population against such government may be a good idea - but then history has shown that the people of those countries tend to do nothing in such a situation anyway.
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  #1844  
Old 10.05.2015, 21:53
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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You might want to look at recent history and what happened at Katrina - if they even reported on it outside the US. The military and police went around wealthy areas and illegally confiscated peoples guns so they could not defend themselves. As a result some with murdered and other processions stolen. They state government has since apologized for that but does not mean they won't do it again.
Silly question maybe but as the military are controlled by the government (generally though coups do occur from time to time), why didn't these arms carrying people see this as government control of their weapons and fight back?

I thought that was the second amendment was drafted exactly for this kind of scenario?
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  #1845  
Old 10.05.2015, 22:43
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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I suppose if you live in a country such as Spain or Italy whose people have a fondest for fascism and dictators then an armed population against such government may be a good idea - but then history has shown that the people of those countries tend to do nothing in such a situation anyway.
Firstly, I don't think Spain or Italy have an exceptional tendency towards fascism. The vagaries of history led them into Fascism for a while, with incompetence, poverty and other factors all playing a part. If it is your argument that just because they did go down that road that proves a tendency for fascism, you would also have to look at the Finns and then look at the French who lived in the Vichy part of France, and indeed the Hungarians and Greeks. And let's not even start with Latin America - a place where in contrast to Europe, the memory is far fresher and the wounds still obvious and cavalier attitudes towards their own history still very common.

But to spool the film back a bit, these fascistoid systems could only take root because there was already a prevalent distrust of government. You don't need to go all the way and envisage an armed population but look tab what happens before that - people feeling disenfranchised or not seeing their interests being served (okay, in many of the examples above there was some help from outside as well, but the argument still stands). This gap between government and people is the first step towards a breakdown of law and order. And if we're not careful its going to happen again.
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  #1846  
Old 10.05.2015, 22:51
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Firstly, I don't think Spain or Italy have an exceptional tendency towards fascism. The vagaries of history led them into Fascism for a while, with incompetence, poverty and other factors all playing a part. If it is your argument that just because they did go down that road that proves a tendency for fascism, you would also have to look at the Finns and the French who lived in the Vichy part of France, and indeed the Hungarians and Greeks. And let's not even start with Latin America - a place where in contrast to Europe, the memory is far fresher and the wounds still obvious and cavalier attitudes towards their own history still very common.

But to spool the film back a bit, these fascistic system could only take root because there was already a prevalent distrust of government. You don't need tong all the way and envisage an armed population but look tab what happens before that - people feeling disenfranchised or not seeing their interests being served. This gap between government and people is the first step towards a breakdown of law and order. And if we're not careful its going to happen again.
Bit this is the gun control thread. Would an armed population have defeated a dictator such as Franco?

Well no, even with the help of the International Brigades, the fascists stayed in power so your early support of the argument that a population needs guns to keep a government in check is a bit weak when put into practice.

Of course there is the other argument that the Spaniards actually were quite happy with a fascist dictator and so Franco stayed in power until his death....but I guess that's for another thread.
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  #1847  
Old 10.05.2015, 23:04
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Bit this is the gun control thread. Would an armed population have defeated a dictator such as Franco?
I thought that was the whole point of the Spanish Civil War. It's also why Franco took their guns away.

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Well no, even with the help of the International Brigades, the fascists stayed in power
In my history books, Franco only came to power as a result of the Civil War. If yours say something different, you must show them to me. The war was thus not really an uprising against him, but more a pell mell of all against all that was caused by the breakdown of the republic, and in which Franco happened to come out top guy (in the early phases of the war his role was only marginal, he just happened to walk into a situation that others had unwittingly created - in fact people who knew him attest that he was neither a skilled tactician nor a good people person, but simply a good soldier). In fact if the republic had been governed slightly more wisely and war could have been averted, Spain would probably have continued being some sort of a republic and would maybe still be today.

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so your early support of the argument that a population needs guns to keep a government in check is a bit weak when put into practice.
I didn't say that. I said a population feeling the need to arm itself is a symptom of a disenfranchised population that feels the government isn't listening and isn't accountable. The arms are the symptom, and neither the malady nor the cure.

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Of course there is the other argument that the Spaniards actually were quite happy with a fascist dictator and so Franco stayed in power until his death....but I guess that's for another thread.
The phenomenon is far more complex than that, and I think you know it.
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  #1848  
Old 10.05.2015, 23:18
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

So are there any instances in fairly modern history where an armed population has overthrown a government they came to mistrust?
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  #1849  
Old 10.05.2015, 23:23
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

Libya?
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  #1850  
Old 10.05.2015, 23:28
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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So are there any instances in fairly modern history where an armed population has overthrown a government they came to mistrust?
The French resistance during WW2 maybe, or also partisans in places like the Balkans at the same time, which eventually led to the liberation of Yugoslavia. I think Yugoslavia is the only country occupied by the Nazis that managed to liberate itself rather than wait for external liberation.

In all these cases there was some level of external aid however.
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  #1851  
Old 10.05.2015, 23:59
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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The French resistance during WW2 maybe, or also partisans in places like the Balkans at the same time, which eventually led to the liberation of Yugoslavia. I think Yugoslavia is the only country occupied by the Nazis that managed to liberate itself rather than wait for external liberation.

In all these cases there was some level of external aid however.
These are cases were an occupying force was repelled.
Last time I looked, Adolf Hitler didn't really get elected to be president of France ;-)
Lybia - we will have to see how it will continue.
Currently, it's more or less a failed state, AFAIK (adding to the list, unfortunately).

Peaceful regime-changes are much more promising.
Because invariably, in an armed conflict, it will not be the party with the best ideas, the highest ideals and the brightest heads that will prevail but those with the most firepower, the best tactics, the least doubts and scruple.
These groups are unfortunately also more often than not unable to actually "run" a country in a peaceful way and make it prosper.
As a result, the country is run like a gang-territory or a military organization.
Which works, sort-of, for a while.
This is usually where the people in charge realize that ultimately, you can't run a country against your people. Not for a prolonged time.
Then, they either step back or start a war (and then step back).
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  #1852  
Old 11.05.2015, 08:55
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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This thread is about US gun control.
About US gun control & The Second Amendment.
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  #1853  
Old 11.05.2015, 12:31
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Peaceful regime-changes are much more promising.
Because invariably, in an armed conflict, it will not be the party with the best ideas, the highest ideals and the brightest heads that will prevail but those with the most firepower, the best tactics, the least doubts and scruple.
These groups are unfortunately also more often than not unable to actually "run" a country in a peaceful way and make it prosper.
As a result, the country is run like a gang-territory or a military organization.

I think if you study the evidence you will find both poorly run democracies and efficiently run dictatorships. Some people like to argue that democracies always work better, or that economic and personal liberties go hand in hand. That is sadly often wishful thinking.


But it's not only the economic results and prosperity that count but also human freedoms and rights. To many people, being free is more valuable than being rich.
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  #1854  
Old 21.01.2016, 16:51
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

Interesting take from Scott Adams.

Solving the gun problem with an app ....

http://blog.dilbert.com/post/1377471...em-with-an-app
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  #1855  
Old 21.01.2016, 16:55
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Interesting take from Scott Adams.

Solving the gun problem with an app ....

http://blog.dilbert.com/post/1377471...em-with-an-app
Its only a good idea if the icon includes the gun - the bigger the icon the more ammo you're carrying
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  #1856  
Old 21.02.2016, 10:07
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

Meanwhile, the EU wants to ban assault rifles.

In Switzerland!

http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/news/story/22577465

Tom
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  #1857  
Old 21.02.2016, 10:21
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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Meanwhile, the EU wants to ban assault rifles.

In Switzerland!

http://www.20min.ch/schweiz/news/story/22577465

Tom
Don't worry. There's no bilateral agreement for that.

Though could be a nice bargaining chip for the Swiss - we'll stop the guns if you agree to our quota limit plan.
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  #1858  
Old 21.02.2016, 14:35
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

They want to ban purchase of semi-automatic rifles and apparently it's part of the schengen agreement. This would really be the EU entering into people's homes I don't know how people would react.
It's also kinda stupid because the terrorists use full auto weapons bought on the black market, not semi-automatic ones. It's one of those laws which makes people having to wade through useless bureaucracy while criminals will carry on doing whatever they want.
But I guess that if this becomes law they could make the collector permit very easy to obtain. Not a bad idea to use it as a bargaining chip.
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  #1859  
Old 23.02.2016, 00:28
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

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They want to ban purchase of semi-automatic rifles and apparently it's part of the schengen agreement. This would really be the EU entering into people's homes I don't know how people would react.
It's also kinda stupid because the terrorists use full auto weapons bought on the black market, not semi-automatic ones. It's one of those laws which makes people having to wade through useless bureaucracy while criminals will carry on doing whatever they want.
But I guess that if this becomes law they could make the collector permit very easy to obtain. Not a bad idea to use it as a bargaining chip.
I think this argument is completely ignorant.

It's trivial to undo the switch from fully- to semi-automatic with the StGW 57 (literally a matter of flipping a plaque), and near-trivial for the StGW 90.

There's zero need to buy fully-automatic rifles on the black market when it's very easy to buy a semi-automatic ex-army rifle. Which you can buy very cheaply, relatively speaking, especially considering their extreme precision.

Last edited by Urs Max; 23.02.2016 at 01:05.
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  #1860  
Old 25.07.2016, 14:44
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Re: THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread

Jerry Brown is apparently getting to the root of the problem. This will make a big difference.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-ca...ce=twitterfeed
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