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JBZ86 12.12.2012 17:53

THE US Gun Control & Second Amendment Thread
 
http://americanlivewire.com/kayla-peterson/

Tom1234 12.12.2012 18:04

Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JordanBarrZurich86 (Post 1743481)


It's not people that kill people, it's guns that kill people.

I'm waiting for the first American on here to say that she should have had her own gun so she could have defended herself. :rolleyes:

Jobsrobertsharpii 12.12.2012 18:06

Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom1234 (Post 1743494)
It's not people that kill people, it's guns that kill people.

I'm waiting for the first American on here to say that she should have had her own gun so she could have defended herself. :rolleyes:

She should have had her own gun so she could have defended herself.

The gun was just the tool. It was the mentality of three asshats that decided to pull the trigger. Like most asshats, they're probably cowards, and if they thought she could shoot back, I doubt this would've happened.

BonBon 12.12.2012 18:23

Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jobsrobertsharpii (Post 1743495)
She should have had her own gun so she could have defended herself.

The gun was just the tool. It was the mentality of three asshats that decided to pull the trigger. Like most asshats, they're probably cowards, and if they thought she could shoot back, I doubt this would've happened.

and if the three "asshats" never had easy access to guns she most probably would not have been shot.

Divesnowboy 12.12.2012 18:25

Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?
 
It's shocking that anyone has to carry a gun, as a deterrent, to defend themselves, this should never be the case.
By the rational of carrying a gun to defend oneself, means, everyone must carry a gun.

Jobsrobertsharpii 12.12.2012 18:29

Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BonBon (Post 1743501)
and if the three "asshats" never had easy access to guns she most probably would not have been shot.


As long as guns exist in the world, people can gain access to them. The laws just vary the degree of access, but the law in this case denied minors the ability to purchase a gun, yet they still got access to them. But as I've always said, the gun did not spontaneously load itself, nor did it spontaneously point at someone, chamber a round, and discharge. Someone pulled the trigger, and, until we address the underlying premise of resolving these types of situations with violence, removing guns just changes the tool, maybe for the better, maybe for worse...

BonBon 12.12.2012 18:31

Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jobsrobertsharpii (Post 1743510)
As long as guns exist in the world, people can gain access to them. The laws just vary the degree of access, but the law in this case denied minors the ability to purchase a gun, yet they still got access to them. But as I've always said, the gun did not spontaneously load itself, nor did it spontaneously point at someone, chamber a round, and discharge. Someone pulled the trigger, and, until we address the underlying premise of resolving these types of situations with violence, removing guns just changes the tool, maybe for the better, maybe for worse...

I don't disagree with you but if there were less guns on the ground the more difficult it would be to get access to them.

NotAllThere 12.12.2012 18:51

Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?
 
The problem in the US is that you've got high gun availability coupled with severe social problems. I'd posit that removing the first would help with the second, and even if it didn't the lethality of crime would be reduced.

The logical consequence of suggesting that this woman would have been knifed if the murderers hadn't had a gun, so there's no point in restricting liability, is that all weapons should be de-restricted.

M. Ploymi 12.12.2012 19:19

Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NotAllThere (Post 1743526)
The problem in the US is that you've got high gun availability coupled with severe social problems. I'd posit that removing the first would help with the second, and even if it didn't the lethality of crime would be reduced.

The logical consequence of suggesting that this woman would have been knifed if the murderers hadn't had a gun, so there's no point in restricting liability, is that all weapons should be de-restricted.

I agree that reducing gun availability will have an impact. Obviously, if there is no access to a gun, it lowers the likelihood that gun-related violence will occur. If these 3 clowns didn't know that daddy had a gun behind the bookshelf, maybe the idea would have never developed beyond that...an idea.

Bu the problem is that this idea, of MURDER, even exists in the first place! Honestly, it's one thing to have a murderous thought (I'm sure many of us have humored the idea), but it's an entirely other thing to actually act upon that thought. Just because you put a gun in someone's lap doesn't mean they'll use it.

What I'm getting at is that this solution (of restricting guns) is only a band-aid fix. It doesn't address the deeply rooted social causes of murder. If someone genuinely wants to go and kill someone, there are thousands of other means of achieving that end besides an assault rifle (bombs, poisons, knives, bare hands).

Not that this helps my case, but I love this Chris Rock clip:


Tom1234 12.12.2012 20:46

Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jobsrobertsharpii (Post 1743510)
As long as guns exist in the world, people can gain access to them. The laws just vary the degree of access, but the law in this case denied minors the ability to purchase a gun, yet they still got access to them. But as I've always said, the gun did not spontaneously load itself, nor did it spontaneously point at someone, chamber a round, and discharge. Someone pulled the trigger, and, until we address the underlying premise of resolving these types of situations with violence, removing guns just changes the tool, maybe for the better, maybe for worse...

Obviously for the better if they're armed with a knife and fork, or a wooden spoon, or a feather...:rolleyes:

Jumping Captain 12.12.2012 20:54

Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BonBon (Post 1743513)
I don't disagree with you but if there were less guns on the ground the more difficult it would be to get access to them.

All that would do is raise the prices, thus making guns available to those that have the dough... the rich and the criminal.
JC

Pancakes 12.12.2012 21:17

Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?
 
The shooter(s) in this story are 13 and 14 years old!

How could that NOT be a sign that guns are too easily accessible in the U.S.???

I know some people say it's not guns that kill people; it's people that kill people. But I don't think the problem is mutually-exclusive.

The problem is both the accessibility of guns and the mentality of people who are quick to use them.

Pachyderm 12.12.2012 21:21

Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jobsrobertsharpii (Post 1743510)
As long as guns exist in the world, people can gain access to them. The laws just vary the degree of access, but the law in this case denied minors the ability to purchase a gun, yet they still got access to them.

Defeatist, complacent, and a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jobsrobertsharpii (Post 1743510)
But as I've always said, the gun did not spontaneously load itself, nor did it spontaneously point at someone, chamber a round, and discharge. Someone pulled the trigger, and, until we address the underlying premise of resolving these types of situations with violence, removing guns just changes the tool, maybe for the better, maybe for worse...

Yes, people perform those actions. Trouble is, carrying a gun seems to have a weird effect on losers like the guys in this story. Once weedy-minded people load the guns, it's as if the guns load them back -- with delusions of strength and respect. These are the qualities they lack naturally. Guns give them an easy way of acquiring these things that other people work hard to get.

There's no easy answer, but I'm certain that a solution gets even more elusive if intelligent, educated people give up and say there's nothing much we can do. But I don't mean to attack you. Are you American? There seems to be a strong sentimental thing linked (wrongly in my view) to 'freedom' and national heritage which makes it very difficult to get movement on.

[THINKS]

It's funny though, because I had a discussion with someone recently about the legalisation of drugs. I was slightly provocative, and I suppose used a similar argument to yours here. That there is nothing intrinsically wrong with most recreational drugs; it all depends how they are used and who uses them. And that the well-publicised problems that some people have sort of spoil it for others, who would be better able to use these things constructively.

[THINKS SOME MORE]

Though I suppose guns tend to kill and injure others while drugs tend to kill and injure the users (with a minority of exceptions in both cases).

BonBon 12.12.2012 22:28

Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jumping Captain (Post 1743595)
All that would do is raise the prices, thus making guns available to those that have the dough... the rich and the criminal.
JC

Which by the looks of things would mean this girl would not have been shot, potentially!
So it would be step in the right direction would you not agree?

Jobsrobertsharpii 12.12.2012 23:22

Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NotAllThere (Post 1743526)
The problem in the US is that you've got high gun availability coupled with severe social problems. I'd posit that removing the first would help with the second, and even if it didn't the lethality of crime would be reduced.

The logical consequence of suggesting that this woman would have been knifed if the murderers hadn't had a gun, so there's no point in restricting liability, is that all weapons should be de-restricted.

I would disagree, and use historical evidence to prove my point. As recently as 60 years ago, we had higher gun availability (per capita), yet less gun-related crime and gun-related accidents. There were fewer gun-control laws, schools had gun clubs, and it was normal to bring a rifle to school for use in after-school activities.

Today we have more gun-control laws, yet we have more gun-related accidents and more gun crime than ever before. The difference is the social structures in place. 60 years ago, it was much less socially acceptable to pull a gun in an argument, and guns were not given the stigma they now seem to possess.

Before anyone derails my argument by citing other (as in not related to guns) issues from 60 years ago, I am not positing a return to the 1950's, but I am pointing out (as an American) that Americans have substituted nanny-state government gun-control laws for common-sense education about proper behavior, managing one's emotions, and conflict resolution. We think that having a law on the books solves the problem and do little to create the culture where this type of violence is unacceptable.

IMO, we can control the guns all we like, but it will never touch the root of the problem, and the violent actors will get their hands on guns anyway, or, failing this, will simply find other means for their violent ends. Maybe its better for all involved, but it could also very easily become much worse.

lost_inbroad 12.12.2012 23:50

Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?
 
Not sure why some people need to always put the US in the spotlight, when similar atrocities happen in our own backyard. The difference is, that here, it simply gets hushed away (i.e. the tragedy which occurred last Sunday in Basel, or the deadly shooting in Zurich last month)...how many of you read or even heard about it? Truth of the matter is, that it can happen anywhere and anytime and I don't find it fair to bash on the US every time a shooting occurs, simply because there is more coverage on it.

FCBarca 13.12.2012 00:10

Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?
 
More guns per capita here en Suisse but night & day in terms of gun violence...Violent country, violent crimes facilitated by easy access to guns

Jobsrobertsharpii 13.12.2012 00:22

Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FCBarca (Post 1743788)
More guns per capita here en Suisse but night & day in terms of gun violence...Violent country, violent crimes facilitated by easy access to guns

Yes, always the gun's fault... It astonishes me how one simply says the word "gun" and people freak out and start blaming the tool. It is just one means to this terrible end. Oh, and BTW, I don't know where the "violent country" perception comes from. As Lib pointed out, we have more media in the US sensationalizing gun violence, but that doesn't also mean that there is actually more gun violence...

amaraya 13.12.2012 00:22

Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ted_death_rate

granted it's wiki but i don't have time to do more- switzerland is not so far behind the u.s in deaths due to guns. obviously, the top few countries aren't getting the same amount of coverage in the media for whatever reason, but having been to two of the top three i can tell you that saying the wrong thing or simply being in the wrong place will certainly get you killed.

guns are easily available in the u.s (and many other places- those top countries are quite gun happy as well), as you see with kids and i remember my brother coming home with a gun once in high school :eek: i really believe that keeping guns out of the hands of kids, criminals or violent people who shouldn't have them is just not possible. it's a long story social issue made far worse by not caring/understanding/thinking about consequences, having nothing to lose and aggressive tendencies. sad, sad story

edit- i see that swiss figures are mostly due to suicides so that explains the high number (before i get jumped on!) though the u.s has the same issue and would rank lower if not for that.

Pancakes 13.12.2012 00:22

Re: What the hell is going on with guns in the US?
 
I do think that much of the gun-related violence in the U.S. is a cultural problem. I don't recall gangs being a problem here in CH (though the thought of a Swiss gangsta is kind of funny).

And of course, not all these violent kids are actually in gangs, but many of them do worship that type of lifestyle. I don't think the two kids that shot up the high school in Columbine years ago, for example, were gangsters, but there was evidence to show that they 'worshiped' violence.

In my opinion, this is the mentality that needs to be somehow reversed. But until the U.S. can figure out a way to do that, it needs to (again, in my opinion) do all that it can to ensure that guns don't end up in the wrong hands.


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