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View Poll Results: If faced with being both blind and deaf, would you opt for euthanasia?
No, I would want to live no matter what 27 42.86%
Yes, it's time to check out 36 57.14%
Voters: 63. You may not vote on this poll

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  #81  
Old 01.12.2016, 17:44
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Re: Would you choose euthanasia over deaf & blindness?

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how can you help someone who doesn't want to be / can't be helped??
By forcibly restraining him, medicating him and potentially locking him up against his and his family's wishes. Which is what Castro and Richdog appear to want. I guess I've made a bad assumption here, so please correct me!
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  #82  
Old 01.12.2016, 18:11
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Re: Would you choose euthanasia over deaf & blindness?

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By forcibly restraining him, medicating him and potentially locking him up against his and his family's wishes. Which is what Castro and Richdog appear to want. I guess I've made a bad assumption here, so please correct me!
Yes, that's what I'm suggesting, although not medication. Prolonged abstinence combined with counselling and therapy.
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  #83  
Old 01.12.2016, 18:17
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Re: Would you choose euthanasia over deaf & blindness?

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Yes, that's what I'm suggesting, although not medication. Prolonged abstinence combined with counselling and therapy.
Ah, in a "your life belongs to the state" kind of way.
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  #84  
Old 01.12.2016, 18:33
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Re: Would you choose euthanasia over deaf & blindness?

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Ah, in a "your life belongs to the state" kind of way.
Yes, that kind of way. For a minimum of a year.
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  #85  
Old 01.12.2016, 18:47
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Re: Would you choose euthanasia over deaf & blindness?

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Yes, that kind of way. For a minimum of a year.
Guess what the most trying part of the process is for an addict here in Switzerland (Given the case of an addict who knows they have a problem, seeks help, goes into a clinic for 3 months to get off the physical addiction, and is motivated to enter a year long program)?
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  #86  
Old 02.12.2016, 00:31
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Re: Would you choose euthanasia over deaf & blindness?

My brain was developed by the world I was living in. What would be the use of all the thinking skills, knowledge, experience, motivation if I would be unable to communicate with the world ever again. It's like someone close you in sound proof dark room - how many days can you live solely on dreaming...

Maybe it's worth to take lesson to learn braille just in case?
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  #87  
Old 02.12.2016, 01:39
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Re: Would you choose euthanasia over deaf & blindness?

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Yes, that kind of way. For a minimum of a year.
This is a very difficult issue and I'm certainly not going to tackle all sides of the argument in one post (past midnight - ie on Friday. )

However, talking only about Richdog's suggestion:

If I could for a second try to put myself in the position of this man who was so desperate as to want to end his life, I can guarantee you that I would much prefer the state sanction my desire to end my own life than the state deciding to lock me up without my consent. Much less to lock me up for a whole year!? What?

My guess is had they done that, the man would have found another way to end his life.

His life. His choice.
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  #88  
Old 02.12.2016, 01:50
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Re: Would you choose euthanasia over deaf & blindness?

To answer the original poll question, No.

I wouldn't enjoy going deaf and blind, but I also wouldn't pull the plug for the loss of my two senses.

I can imagine that it might be different for a painter, or a musician. I am neither
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  #89  
Old 02.12.2016, 08:37
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Re: Would you choose euthanasia over deaf & blindness?

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Ah, in a "your life belongs to the state" kind of way.
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Yes, that kind of way. For a minimum of a year.
So state mandated death is wrong, but state mandated life whether you want it or not is fine.
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  #90  
Old 02.12.2016, 09:44
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Re: Would you choose euthanasia over deaf & blindness?

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So state mandated death is wrong, but state mandated life whether you want it or not is fine.
This is so far from anything that's been said I doubt this misinterpretation is indeed unintentional. Such a reproach usually has one purpose only: To silence the other side for silencing's sake. Certainly not to have a productive discussion.

It's not about state mandated death. It's about state sanctioned death and thus mandatory support including the obligation to provide the means and medical personnel where necessary, and whether preconditions (if any) exist for this obligation to apply.
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  #91  
Old 02.12.2016, 10:01
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Re: Would you choose euthanasia over deaf & blindness?

but you'd sure play a mean pinball
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  #92  
Old 02.12.2016, 10:16
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Re: Would you choose euthanasia over deaf & blindness?

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This is so far from anything that's been said I doubt this misinterpretation is indeed unintentional. Such a reproach usually has one purpose only: To silence the other side for silencing's sake. Certainly not to have a productive discussion.

It's not about state mandated death. It's about state sanctioned death and thus mandatory support including the obligation to provide the means and medical personnel where necessary, and whether preconditions (if any) exist for this obligation to apply.
I assumed she was referring to some other thread where he gave his views on capital punishment, but I'm not sure.
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  #93  
Old 02.12.2016, 13:13
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Re: Would you choose euthanasia over deaf & blindness?

All right call it state sanctioned life and death then. Richdog seems to think it's fine to lock someone up to "help" them, yet not allow them the "option" of choosing to end their life. So I assume he'd be fine with locking someone up for the rest of their life because what if being off the booze for a year, therapy, etc, still has no effect and they go straight back to drinking as soon as they're released? Lock them up again ... and again .... and again ... Or would he rather the guy in his link just kept drinking himself to death since he was sick and tired of seeking treatment for his addiction? That's okay because the state isn't involved? Isn't having the option to choose how he dies better?

And let's not forget the the state gets involved in the first place because we have such a taboo culture against suicide. This discussion wouldn't even be happening if the state simply had a law that said relatives/friends could procure the necessary ingredient, be it aspirin or whatever, without the risk of being prosecuted.
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  #94  
Old 02.12.2016, 13:29
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Re: Would you choose euthanasia over deaf & blindness?

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All right call it state sanctioned life and death then. Richdog seems to think it's fine to lock someone up to "help" them, yet not allow them the "option" of choosing to end their life. So I assume he'd be fine with locking someone up for the rest of their life because what if being off the booze for a year, therapy, etc, still has no effect and they go straight back to drinking as soon as they're released? Lock them up again ... and again .... and again ... Or would he rather the guy in his link just kept drinking himself to death since he was sick and tired of seeking treatment for his addiction? That's okay because the state isn't involved? Isn't having the option to choose how he dies better?
How do you know if it would work or not when it wasn't even tried? He underwent a succession of short rehabs and then got out and went straight back to drink, nowhere near long enough of an abstinence to undergo real mental conditioning. The guy had a family, and I would wager that as the son grows up he is certainly not going to look at this assisted suicide as a 'happy' moment, it's going to cause a raft of trauma as he matures and chews on it (mother, why do other serious alcoholics not commit suicide? Others seem to get better don't they? Did he not want to?) The guy ran out of willpower and gave up and took the easy option instead of doing everything humanly possible for his son. The fact he ended his life laughing while drinking and smoking is darkly ironic.

As for the: "locking them up for the rest of their life" thing, come on Medea you can argue more intelligently than that... or so I thought. My point was that until EVERY avenue has been explored, no matter how hard it is for that person, then that someone hasn't tried everything. If all addicts got to choose a state-sanctioned death simply because they were at their lowest ebb then it would, imo, cause a huge paradigm shift in society and weaken our will to fight to overcome things. After all, why bother with all the effort and pain when you can just... slip away?

Last edited by Richdog; 02.12.2016 at 14:14. Reason: Spelling, grammar and refinement.
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  #95  
Old 02.12.2016, 14:03
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Re: Would you choose euthanasia over deaf & blindness?

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My point was that until EVERY avenue has been explored, no matter how hard it is for that person, then that someone hasn't tried everything.

If all addicts got to choose a state-sanctioned death simply because they were at their lowest ebb then it would, imo, cause a huge paradigm shift in society and weaken our will to fight to overcome things. After all, why bother with all the effort and pain when you can just... slip away?
@Richdog, I hear that you're appealing for not giving up too soon, and that you see a value in at least thoroughly exploring all the options, in hanging in there, in trying again and again.

In those aspects, I agree with you. I would not be pleased if the paradigm shift went so far as to accept any flimsy, short-term, notion to just go ahead and die, anytime, because one had lost one's lucky charm or the parrot had flown.

Many a difficult phase of life has been successfully overcome with hard work and determination to find a solution, and often that journey is admirable and very satisfying. We like it when we manage to achieve that, ourselves, and we admire it in others.

Yes, I also get frustrated when people with, let us say, a problem of any kind, won't Get On With It to work towards the possible solutions. Indeed, I even find myself frustrating in this way when I can clearly see that some aspect of my life needs changing, but - for a variety of reasons - I don't or can't or won't impliment the solutions that other people (and sometimes even me) seem to think are obvious or necessary. This is especially frustrating when it is not "won't" but "can't".

Also a great pity if solutions could be had, and are wanted by the person him/herself, but the society refuses to make them available.

Even so, I wonder when it's okay to choose freely not to try any further avenues. For example, if someone received a diagnosis of cancer, tried some operations, chemo and radiation, and after one year found that the treatments themselves were too strenuous, while noticing that the blood counts (or x-rays) were deteriorating, would it be okay for them to break it all off and say: "I've tried the usual treatment programmes, I'm not getting any better, so I'm going to end things."?

Furthermore, what about someone with the same diagnosis, who then thought through the options, weighed up their lives, and decided not to embark on any chemo, radiation, etc., at all? I see no reason why the cancer patient has to prove that she's worked her way through every option, before she's allowed to die.

And I balk at a heirarchy of entitlement to one's right to die: if it is a physical diagnosis and you've tried your best then you're "in", next step down a physical diagnosis but you haven't tried, next step down "only" (ha!) a pychiatric diagnosis but at least you've tried, and then those with psychiatric diagnoses who are worn out and don't want to (or feel they no longer can) try.

I think there's a lot to be said for a "life balance" decision, meaning one has profoundly considered the options for improvement in one's life, how much suffering (of all kinds) one experiences, the likely journey from here on, and then drawn the conclusion to call it a day. This would then be a truly free right: to choose no longer to
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bother with all the effort and pain when you can just... slip away?
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  #96  
Old 02.12.2016, 14:12
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Re: Would you choose euthanasia over deaf & blindness?

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Richdog seems to think it's fine to lock someone up to "help" them, yet not allow them the "option" of choosing to end their life. So I assume he'd be fine with locking someone up for the rest of their life because what if being off the booze for a year, therapy, etc, still has no effect and they go straight back to drinking as soon as they're released?
You make it sound like some alien concept where I come from people fitting this man's description are routinely sectioned under the Mental Health Act for their own protection and well being. The question becomes, is that better served by ending his life or trying to make him better?

There seems to be an assumption of futility, but there are new trials and advancements in mental health which mean in 10 years time we could look back at this episode and wonder what the hell were his doctors thinking?
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  #97  
Old 02.12.2016, 14:25
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Re: Would you choose euthanasia over deaf & blindness?

I don't know and neither do you. And why should EVERY avenue have to be explored first? Surely it should be down to the individual to decide whether they want to keep on trying and trying or not. Or are you suggesting that they must keep trying for their own good no matter what because life in any form is better than death?

Two points: a) addiction does not necessarily equate to mental illness. Cigarettes are addictive - should all cigarette smokers be sanctioned until they get better? b) I don't know what the law is in the country we're talking about, but in the UK a doctor can sanction someone if they think it needs to be done. Presumably many doctors saw this man and none of them considered he needed sanctioning for mental health issues.
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  #98  
Old 02.12.2016, 14:26
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Re: Would you choose euthanasia over deaf & blindness?

To answer the threads question.

YES, I would and will.


As someone who was only hard of hearing as a child, but now has lost the ability to hear, it would be the most terrible thing were I to lose my eyesight too.

Already isolated very much from society and social life, just because of my kaputt ears, dependant on people to lend me their ears, when something has to be done via phone/having them with me as kind of translators when I meet new people or a bunch of people.

Getting by by lipreading e.g. my main social contacts are kind of exclusively visually based.


So were I to loose my eyesight an'all, I would certainly see to become a member of EXIT or Dignitas......I woudn't have any quality of life anymore and it would be hell to exist this way!
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Old 02.12.2016, 14:29
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Re: Would you choose euthanasia over deaf & blindness?

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I don't know and neither do you. And why should EVERY avenue have to be explored first? Surely it should be down to the individual to decide whether they want to keep on trying and trying or not. Or are you suggesting that they must keep trying for their own good no matter what because life in any form is better than death?

Two points: a) addiction does not necessarily equate to mental illness. Cigarettes are addictive - should all cigarette smokers be sanctioned until they get better? b) I don't know what the law is in the country we're talking about, but in the UK a doctor can sanction someone if they think it needs to be done. Presumably many doctors saw this man and none of them considered he needed sanctioning for mental health issues.
Jesus, no offence Medea but the moment you start saying "should all smokers be sanctioned?" then I know we are operating on slightly different levels of rationality here. Lets just agree to disagree.
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Old 02.12.2016, 14:32
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Re: Would you choose euthanasia over deaf & blindness?

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So were I to loose my eyesight an'all, I would certainly see to become a member of EXIT or Dignitas.!
I would suggest joining now. It's like the mieterverband: these types of organisations are best joined before you need them
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