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Old 04.04.2013, 20:07
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Just sentence or not?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22029881

What do you think? After all the Bible says "an eye for an eye".
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Old 04.04.2013, 20:29
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Re: Just sentence or not?

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22029881

What do you think? After all the Bible says "an eye for an eye".
Which has nothing to do with criminal justice and actually means that punishment/compensation should not be excessive.

Another cruel and barbaric story from the Middle East...
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Old 04.04.2013, 20:31
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Re: Just sentence or not?

Of course it's not a just sentence. But we're not the ones judging or sentencing here. Unfortunately, no one can or will ever agree on how to punish any type of crime because it will never change the original offence. Whilst there is a consensus that someone who acts in a violent manner towards others needs to undergo some kind of punishment for their deed, how will this ever help the victim?

Whether you're talking about capital punishment, life prison sentences, partial decapitation or all the rest of it, none of it is good or bad, they're just options. As a society, we like to see criminals locked up, but that's just forcing our future peers to re-evaluate the sentence in years to come.

Nasty business going on in Saudi Arabia though. Such a shame that they're buying all those Typhoons and F-15S Eagles, otherwise the West would be really, really cross.
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Old 04.04.2013, 20:36
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Re: Just sentence or not?

To my Western mind, that's just not right.

As I recall the "eye for an eye" bit came out of both old testament law and the code of Hammurabi. If I recall correctly, the Jewish interpretation of the time was for it to apply to monetary damages or compensation. In the Arabic world, I think that there were some caveats about it only applying to social equals as well.

Anyway, Jesus pretty much refuted the concept of direct one-to-one retribution as a bad idea (I think maybe during the sermon on the mount?).

I guess that the lesson to be learned here is to stay out of trouble in Saudi Arabia!
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Old 04.04.2013, 20:44
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Re: Just sentence or not?

Well, the article did say the guy could pay $250,000 in compensation instead.

It has nothing to do with criminal justice and actually means the punishment/compensation shouldn't be excessive. Is that what you think this is? I'd say it was very appropriate justice and not excessive. But then I'm a "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" type of person - even though I'm an atheist.
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Old 04.04.2013, 20:48
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Re: Just sentence or not?

I think a more just sentence would be a one where the offender would serve the victim for an extended period of time. Pushing his wheelchair around , for example.
On another aspect of this story, I wonder why no western power wants to invade these guys to save them and their women from their endless backwardness. Huh?
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Old 04.04.2013, 20:57
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Re: Just sentence or not?

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I think a more just sentence would be a one where the offender would serve the victim for an extended period of time. Pushing his wheelchair around , for example.
On another aspect of this story, I wonder why no western power wants to invade these guys to save them and their women from their endless backwardness. Huh?
No need to invade a country when you already have their leaders in your back pocket and they're allowing you to make a buck selling their oil.
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Old 04.04.2013, 21:40
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Re: Just sentence or not?

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22029881

What do you think? After all the Bible says "an eye for an eye".
An eye for an eye seems only fair to me.

I wouldn't lose sleep over Mick Philpott going to the stake.

Some people are just bad b4stards, and society is better off rid of them.

That said, the Saudi case seems just vindictive, I can't see the point in that.
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Old 04.04.2013, 22:42
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Re: Just sentence or not?

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It has nothing to do with criminal justice and actually means the punishment/compensation shouldn't be excessive. Is that what you think this is? I'd say it was very appropriate justice and not excessive.
Well that's interesting... an atheist who want's to paralyze a guy quotes the bible to justify his view. That particular quote is only about compensation not retribution.
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Old 05.04.2013, 07:59
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Re: Just sentence or not?

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Well that's interesting... an atheist who want's to paralyze a guy quotes the bible to justify his view. That particular quote is only about compensation not retribution.
Well, I was brought up in the middle of the US Bible belt so some of the teaching still sticks. Funny, they didn't mention the compensation only part of that. I wonder why.

Btw I do think there are many things in the Bible that are good guidelines for living your life whether you believe in the rest of what's written in the book or not. I just feel that the "eye for an eye" side of things may be more of a deterrent than the "turn the other cheek" view.

Simeon's idea of him having to care for the guy would also be an appropriate punishment as he would then have to help the guy live with the consequences of his action. I think these sort of sentences, where people have to directly atone for their actions, may help at least some realise that what they do to others is not just a game, or cool, or clever but often life changing.
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Old 05.04.2013, 08:15
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Re: Just sentence or not?

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/snip
Whether you're talking about capital punishment, life prison sentences, partial decapitation or all the rest of it,
/snip
Could you explain "partial decapitation"?

The only thing I could think of was Mike the headless chicken.
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Old 05.04.2013, 08:29
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Re: Just sentence or not?

Had a few beers and staying out of this. Typed to quick

still just wow, didnt know we were that far behind still
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Old 05.04.2013, 08:53
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Re: Just sentence or not?

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An eye for an eye seems only fair to me.

I wouldn't lose sleep over Mick Philpott going to the stake.

Some people are just bad b4stards, and society is better off rid of them.

That said, the Saudi case seems just vindictive, I can't see the point in that.
I think you're right that certain despicable crimes like this, the majority of the public would be happy to see the criminal face an 'eye for an eye' style punishment. A lot of it is down to emotion though and emotions should not affect sentencing.

One of the problems is the lack of proper sentencing and once sentenced the 'luxurious' life the prisoners face (referring to the UK). It would seem that the younger generation come out of prisoner not caring if they go back in again as it seems to be an easy life inside.

Prisons are overcrowded which imo prevent proper sentencing. A prison sentence needs to be a punishment and a punishment that will make the criminal think twice about committing another crime, I am sure I read some where that 80% of prisoners released will re-offend within the first 6 months, now that is a huge problem. It could also be said that criminals are not given a chance once released but the question is do they want help if they can live an easy life 'on the streets' and inside if they get caught.

Its a discussion that could go on and on and on and certainly in the UK seems to be a big problem.
Certainly imo in the UK there is no real deterrent for the 'petty' criminal and certainly none for your 'gangster' style criminal.
Tougher sentencing and tougher prisons is what is needed.

Last edited by Connor MacLeod; 05.04.2013 at 09:04.
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Old 05.04.2013, 09:28
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Re: Just sentence or not?

Happened when he was 14, he has just done 10 years. No I don’t agree with this further punishment.

The line must be drawn some where!?!

I think he should without doubt pay a monetary contribution to the victim to help enable him to live a "Normal" life as possible (Wheelchair ramp, bathroom fittings, widen doors etc..)

Maybe (Like divorce) the victim should be paid maintenance...

I dont know the answer but in my opinion paralysis is not the way forward!?!
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Old 05.04.2013, 11:26
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Re: Just sentence or not?

Think of the consequences.
Paralysing this man as a punishment will mean that someone will have to look after him and provide 24 hr care for him for the rest of his life. That will probably mean a female member of his family: wife, sister or mother will have to put her life on hold to be a 24hr unpaid carer.
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Old 05.04.2013, 11:35
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Re: Just sentence or not?

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Think of the consequences.
Paralysing this man as a punishment will mean that someone will have to look after him and provide 24 hr care for him for the rest of his life. That will probably mean a female member of his family: wife, sister or mother will have to put her life on hold to be a 24hr unpaid carer.
As does the wife/family member/carer of the guy he stabbed.
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Old 05.04.2013, 11:49
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Re: Just sentence or not?

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As does the wife/family member/carer of the guy he stabbed.

So you think justice should be retributive ?

I was always in favour of rehabilative justice, much cheaper for Society, and many more benefits for Society.

Retribution justice fails those it is designed to protect.
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Old 05.04.2013, 12:16
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Re: Just sentence or not?

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So you think justice should be retributive ?

I was always in favour of rehabilative justice, much cheaper for Society, and many more benefits for Society.

Retribution justice fails those it is designed to protect.
I can't really see that the other way is doing much protecting either. In jail for a few months/years and then out again ready to do the same thing again to their next victim.
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Old 05.04.2013, 12:40
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Re: Just sentence or not?

I am surprised that there are so many on here so think this would be an acceptable sentence. A crime has been committed - do 2 wrongs make a right? There is no way to undo the first crime. I think more just and helpful to society is to make the person do work of some sort.

I do not think a high rate of recidivism is only a result of it being "too" good on the inside - maybe only in the sense that there aren't many options on the outside once a criminal record is there. How many would hire a prior felon? If there were more programs that trained and prepared prisoners for jobs after their time is served, and provided jobs for them, perhaps the %age of those ending up back behind bars would decrease. Maybe a better use of tax payers money than putting them up behind bars again...
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Old 05.04.2013, 12:47
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Re: Just sentence or not?

I couldn't get passed this part in the article:
Quote:
Saudi media reports earlier said the 24-year-old man could be paralysed from the waist down if he could not pay his victim £250,000 in compensation.
Ali al-Khawahir was 14 when he stabbed a friend in the back in the Eastern Province town of al-Ahsa. He has been in prison for 10 years.
How can a legal system expect a man to pay £250,000, if he has been in jail since he was 14yo?

It's not as though the report indicates he has the money and is reluctant to pay.

Does he really have a choice?

If he can pay, then he chooses paralysis, and that's his decision.
If not...... then it's just barbaric.




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I'm a "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" type of person - even though I'm an atheist.
FYI - I'm honestly not taking a dig at you here, but I stopped using that expression when I came to learn that this only works well within a cultural mindset.
Cross-Cultural circumstances generally highlight different preferences in what one would like to "have done to them".

Keep that in mind next time you "do unto others"...... they just may not like it

But you're right - if everyone could just stop being inconsiderate arseholes to each other the world would be a nicer place.
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