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  #221  
Old 04.02.2014, 12:42
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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Important to remember there were different electoral percentages for the AKP and for Erdogan himself.
Also to remember if people are unhappy then who do they vote for in the future; always the risk they eventually vote for the AKP because they dislike them least!
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so do you claim that those corruption/illegal activity charges were fabricated?
that Erdogan/ministers/AKP-followers' + families accumulated all that wealth by playing fair?
ABSOLUTELY NOT! In my eyes, they have been the most corrupted government in Turkish history. The number of illegal tenders, construction plan changes, allocation of government resources to personal benefits, forgery in state exams incl. university entrance, indictments based on faked evidences are just some of the few common actions of AKP government. Just to note, the state financial and spendings are not being audited since years under the influence of the government.

My comment was rather on the methodology of the accusations. I wish the justice system in Turkey were so well established that the investigations were to be the result of just laws and not a result of the power collision between two power hungry organization. What I mean is, I think the the investigation is really legit but the motivation is not the passion for justice.

Last edited by Dark Blue; 04.02.2014 at 12:48. Reason: last sentence
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  #222  
Old 06.02.2014, 14:01
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Re: Turkish Spring?

Even if you had some suspicions about the credibility of various tapes making youtube/opposition websites, the government's latest action to curb free speech is just proving the opposite
I believe it takes really guts to do such things so openly.. just shows how poor/weak media/law currently are in Turkey


Below, excerpts from a Bloomberg article
Turkey Increases Control Over Internet Amid Corruption Probe
By Selcan Hacaoglu
Feb. 6 (Bloomberg) -- Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s government passed a law giving it broader powers to block access to websites as wiretaps alleging government corruption were being shared on the Internet.
Parliament voted late yesterday to authorize the head of country’s telecommunications authority to ban access to content deemed to violate personal privacy within four hours of a petition, eliminating the need for a court order. Access can be unblocked if a judge decides against it within 48 hours.
The bill was introduced shortly after alleged wiretapped conversations among government officials and businessmen hit the Internet, reinforcing suspicions of influence-peddling.
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  #223  
Old 06.02.2014, 15:43
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Re: Turkish Spring?

Yes it takes some guts today..but please do not forget the tens of thousands of people who protested erdogan in the last summer..i believe they are the ones who have created this move in the first place..
Having said that i do not think those brave souls are the same ones who is making the tapes today.

Last edited by Dark Blue; 06.02.2014 at 16:19. Reason: corrected last sentence
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Old 06.02.2014, 16:14
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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Yes it takes some guts today..but please do not forget the tens of thousands of people who protested erdogan in the last summer..i believe they are the ones who have created this move in the first place..
Having said that i do not think those brave souls are not the same ones who is making the tapes today.
The problem with firing policemen and prosecutors is that it does not make the information they collected disappear and it does not motivate them to keep secrets.
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  #225  
Old 06.02.2014, 16:21
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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The problem with firing policemen and prosecutors is that it does not make the information they collected disappear and it does not motivate them to keep secrets.
Funny you mention that as Erdogan said two days ago in germany that the elections in march will the test to their honesty snd cleanness..in other words, he thinks that elections shall replace the courts and laws.
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  #226  
Old 06.02.2014, 16:45
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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The problem with firing policemen and prosecutors is that it does not make the information they collected disappear and it does not motivate them to keep secrets.
I beg to differ;
by firing/displacing policemen/prosecutors collecting/publishing evidence against his empire, suing military police commanders who dare to stop and question his illegal arms transport to Syria, turning off street surveillance cameras during critical car bomb explosion in Syrian border (when zillions of them constantly record everything else moving), he is scaring off his would be opponents

and he is doing it against all (meager) media, (substantial) social media opposition while the whole world is watching

he will win in local elections again just like during previous elections not just because he is employing dirty tactics but also because people still buy into his religion rhetoric
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  #227  
Old 07.02.2014, 04:55
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Re: Turkish Spring?

Would the various opposition parties unite into one or two parties, Erdogan would lose his absolute majority in parliament and be forced to enter a coalition.
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  #228  
Old 07.02.2014, 09:26
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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Would the various opposition parties unite into one or two parties, Erdogan would lose his absolute majority in parliament and be forced to enter a coalition.
Won't happen at all

The Kurdish BDP and rightwing MHP do not have anything in common; the main opposition party, leftwing CHP, is hopeless. They have already tried getting right votes by bringing in ex-right wing politicians but it just damaged the party's own structure. Even arch-CHP supporters are highly critical of CHP's lack of direction/leadership

So in absence of subtle opposition and prosecution, AKP will win
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  #229  
Old 07.02.2014, 10:30
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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Won't happen at all

The Kurdish BDP and rightwing MHP do not have anything in common; the main opposition party, leftwing CHP, is hopeless. They have already tried getting right votes by bringing in ex-right wing politicians but it just damaged the party's own structure. Even arch-CHP supporters are highly critical of CHP's lack of direction/leadership

So in absence of subtle opposition and prosecution, AKP will win
You are right about the rightwing and nstionalistic pasties, but I think the point of CHP is not valid anymore.
Maybe the leader of chp is not a good showman as erdogsn, but I know alot of people who likes his style.he has been fighting to clean up the parties old dinosours.now they have a good and young orgsnization,better understanding of the public needs..you can see this from their reaction towards the lift of turban in the parliament.
As per bringing the rightwing csndidate, I very much support that because this is the local elections and those candidates have profen themselves in municipal msnagement.there is what ee want to see in Turkey, leaving politics aside but assigning positions to capable hands.
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  #230  
Old 07.02.2014, 11:04
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Re: Turkish Spring?

The problem with CHP is that they do not have a vision/ideals/party policy.
I understand what they tried to do with the rightwing candidate for Ankara but that is seen only as a means to save the day.

There is so much corruption going on both in Ankara (Melih Gokcek) and Istanbul (Fatih municipality). CHP should be focusing on solid evidence and cases (instead they tried it once with a decoy false evidence against a Syrian-origin voter and being made fun of)

Check AKP; from the start on their ideals were to bring more rights/freedom to the more fundamental part of the society (read Headscarf) and create their own elite (now we have more 'fundamentalist; (!) rich). From their establishment onwards, they worked for this ideal and voters pay their gratitude to them still (many supporters still remember the days when they were mistreated because of their head-scarves so even when scandals surfaced they cite those memories)

Check BDP; they have been for a separate Kurdish entity in SE Turkey; they are successfully moving on that path

Can any one tell me about one party policy/goal for CHP?
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  #231  
Old 07.02.2014, 11:50
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Re: Turkish Spring?

The situation in Turkey is getting worse by the day:

"Turkish government deported on Friday Azeri journalist for "posting tweets against high-level state officials," local media reported.
The order was reportedly due to an application by the Prime Ministry's Coordination Center. Mahir Zeynalov was on a list of foreign individuals barred from entering Turkey under Law No. 5683, according to the daily Today's Zaman reported.
Zeynalov was already the target of criminal complaint filed by the Turkish prime minister for tweets he posted on Dec. 25 regarding the massive graft probe that shake-up the government.
Zeynalov is accused of "trying to portray Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan as protecting al-Qaida members" in his tweet regarding a police operation targeting al-Qaida in January, the report said."

To be fair, the daily Zaman is said to be backed by the "parallel" organisation
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  #232  
Old 07.02.2014, 11:57
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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The problem with CHP is that they do not have a vision/ideals/party policy.
I understand what they tried to do with the rightwing candidate for Ankara but that is seen only as a means to save the day.

There is so much corruption going on both in Ankara (Melih Gokcek) and Istanbul (Fatih municipality). CHP should be focusing on solid evidence and cases (instead they tried it once with a decoy false evidence against a Syrian-origin voter and being made fun of)

Check AKP; from the start on their ideals were to bring more rights/freedom to the more fundamental part of the society (read Headscarf) and create their own elite (now we have more 'fundamentalist; (!) rich). From their establishment onwards, they worked for this ideal and voters pay their gratitude to them still (many supporters still remember the days when they were mistreated because of their head-scarves so even when scandals surfaced they cite those memories)

Check BDP; they have been for a separate Kurdish entity in SE Turkey; they are successfully moving on that path

Can any one tell me about one party policy/goal for CHP?
Here you go: http://www.chp.org.tr/wp-content/uploads/chpprogram.pdf

you can use google translate if you like.

As per BDP; I understand their will to support the Kurdish rights. however, putting that aside they are completely useless. For example; they have not criticized AKP once about the corruption investigations. With this approach they can never be a political party for the whole country. you might say this is not their goal. Then, what have they done to stop the feodal system in the Se of Turkey. I hardly think that this is a socialist approach.

Anyways, I think we focusing on the wrong end here. Neither CHP or BDP is an alternative to AKP. They are representing their leftwing views. ONly a rightwing party can be the alternative to AKP and unfortunately there is no such party / leader today. Maybe it is time MHP to revolutionize itself.
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  #233  
Old 07.02.2014, 12:05
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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Here you go: http://www.chp.org.tr/wp-content/uploads/chpprogram.pdf

you can use google translate if you like.
Don't get me wrong, I have a similar booklet lying somewhere in my drawers for the line of business I do as well; I have not read it at all. Ataturk ideology, general democratic principles and all,.. nothing subtle or applicable to the current decade. Check AKP's 2023 vision on the contrary: http://www.akparti.org.tr/site/hedefler

But I agree that neither BDP nor CHP can be an alternative to AKP unfortunately.
I do not think BDP is aiming to be a national party; they work for a separate Kurdish state in SE
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  #234  
Old 07.02.2014, 12:16
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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Don't get me wrong, I have a similar booklet lying somewhere in my drawers for the line of business I do as well; I have not read it at all. Ataturk ideology, general democratic principles and all,.. nothing subtle or applicable to the current decade. Check AKP's 2023 vision on the contrary: http://www.akparti.org.tr/site/hedefler

But I agree that neither BDP nor CHP can be an alternative to AKP unfortunately.
I do not think BDP is aiming to be a national party; they work for a separate Kurdish state in SE
I see what you mean and agree that AKP is really a good model on how proper PR should be done. They are much better in organization and communication. Having said that looking at the targets there, they are just dreams without a proper plan behind it and most of those targets are building projects. you can see that there are nothing with regards to education, technology, human rights,democracy,EU,etc. but construction only . This is their main problem. They think that Turkey would be a developed country if we have the largest airport or marine. ( BTW, the investigations have shown how those projects are tendered).

As per the Kurdish state, I think BDP is following a fundamentally wrong approach on what they want to achieve.(i.e ignorance of the feodal system). But that is a subject of another thread.
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  #235  
Old 25.02.2014, 13:52
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Re: Turkish Spring?

From today's newspapers "Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan's office said voice recordings on YouTube purportedly of Erdogan telling his son to dispose of large sums of money on the day news broke of a graft inquiry into his government were fake and "completely untrue".

In the recordings, the voice supposedly of Erdogan can be heard asking his son to remove the money from his home.

At one point, the voice at the other end of the line says some 30 million euros ($40 million) remain to be disposed of.
"

Should not be too difficult to analyse the voice print and say how likely it is too have been Erdogan?
Of course, if it was faked and the "fakers" were really technically good then it would be hard to tell?
I suppose the NSA will have the original recordings
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  #236  
Old 25.02.2014, 14:04
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Re: Turkish Spring?

The thing is in his speech to the parliament earlier today he admitted that these "illegal and scandalous" wire-tapping have been going on for more than three years and various ministers, himself and even the president were tapped.

The funny bit about all of this is that he denied the authenticity of these recordings on the same speech.

The recording, if real, does not only foil how corrupt they are as a family/government altogether but also how incapable/slow tayyip's son is.. he lets his father repeat everything multiple times and does not manage to make the cash disappear even after 5 direct orders from his daddy
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  #237  
Old 25.02.2014, 14:52
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Re: Turkish Spring?

Did some more research; the thing is that if these recordings are fakes there must be a big industry behind them because there are so many of these recordings floating around?

Each fake would have to be scripted beforehand, spoken by actors or electronically created followed by professional quality control and fine tuning and then distributed - a lot of time and investment. Amateur fakes would soon be identified?

It does not seem likely that such a big privately run activity could be concealed for so long. There are always leaks?

I could believe that some are fakes but not so many?
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Old 25.02.2014, 14:59
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Re: Turkish Spring?

Well , the prime minister accepts the speeches. but argue that they are re-manufactured. In other words, he is browsing through the places where he can run away.
By the way, there are already rumors that some video footage of the money transport is also available. We will see about that.

This is a real test for Turkey now. If nothing happens even after this, then unfortunately there no hope left for my dear country.

P.S: as noted in my earlier posts the time through the elections will be more exciting.
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  #239  
Old 25.02.2014, 15:34
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Re: Turkish Spring?

I have unfortunately given up all hope for a change in the upcoming elections..

Despite everything happening since Gezi demonstrations, Akp supporters still follow tayyip's akp. despite all the lies, all the violence, all the public removal of prosecutors, all evidence (of stashed cash atbureaucrats' homes)

turkey is bound to be divided into multiple separate independent states thanks to this government; akp has been the worst enemy of the country - kurds among us would ofcourse welcome the freedom acquired during their reign but it was not akp's main goal
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  #240  
Old 25.02.2014, 16:20
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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kurds among us would ofcourse welcome the freedom acquired during their reign but it was not akp's main goal
From a Kurdish family, I can tell you that while we got more recognition over the past years, none that I know, have Erdogan in respect. Kurdish new rights and "freedom" was, I believe, a political move for joining the EU. Nothing to do with justice and rights.
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