Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 02.06.2013, 12:13
Kash_Z's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Zurich
Posts: 453
Groaned at 3 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 594 Times in 195 Posts
Kash_Z has a reputation beyond reputeKash_Z has a reputation beyond reputeKash_Z has a reputation beyond reputeKash_Z has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Turkish Spring?

Quote:
View Post
Attaturk the father of modern Turkey prohibited the headscarf and the fez. He tried to secularize Turkey and make it a modern nation. After the fall of the Ottoman empire, the Turks were floundering and the future of the nation was not clear. Attaturk put back on a path to Western integration and he hoped, greatness.
What I don't understand about Turkish folk who oppose the headscarf in the name of preserving secularism is that all you have to do is to take a look at places like the UK, US & Canada who are hugely successful secular countries and showcase some of the best models of integration between people of different backgrounds (workplace, interpersonal relationships, common interests) and you will find headscarfed women in the workplace, in educational institutions, even in local government. It really leaves me thinking that some secularists are just as extreme as those who they stand to oppose.

In any case, one of the big ironies of this whole headscarf debate in Turkey is this photo of Ataturk. That's his wife sitting with him...

Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Kash_Z for this useful post:
  #22  
Old 02.06.2013, 13:17
ufi's Avatar
ufi ufi is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Zurich
Posts: 1
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 6 Times in 2 Posts
ufi has no particular reputation at present
Re: Turkish Spring?

Well this has got nothing to do with the headscarf issue actually. This is about not being listened, not being able to publicly tell your opinions, issues not being debated but imposed upon people, people sentenced because there is no freedom of speech. Taking the 50% of the votes doesnt mean that you can ignore the other 50% and do just whatever you want. In a true democracy people can talk and have the right to protest. It all started when people protested peacefully against the teardown of a small park and build up of a shopping mall instead. Police raided the park two mornings consecutively, burned down protesters tents and used excessive violence and tear gas. If you look at the amount of tear gas used in Turkey at the moment you would be amazed. Istiklal street was totally covered with tear gas capsules. People suffered dramatically. Before this park it was a historic beautiful cinema that was torn down in Beyoglu, again to build a shopping mall. People protested for months and nobody listened and over the last protests there was again police violence. You can not constantly push people, there are consequences in the end. Coming back to headscarf, believe me most of the people who protested in Turkey nowadays has no issues with headscarf and even supported that it can be worn freely in universities.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank ufi for this useful post:
  #23  
Old 02.06.2013, 13:40
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 8,570
Groaned at 246 Times in 212 Posts
Thanked 11,573 Times in 6,320 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Turkish Spring?

I have the impression that Erdogan spends too much time trying too be a world figure & too little time on consolidating his popularity at home.

He certainly wants to be President but is unlikely to be able to increase the powers of the president because he does not have the necessary two thirds majority in Parliament. He will need to find a prime minister who will do what he says but this will also not be easy.

Some people say that the economy is showing signs of a downturn which would not be good for him.
Reply With Quote
This user groans at marton for this post:
  #24  
Old 02.06.2013, 14:22
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zurich
Posts: 17
Groaned at 7 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 18 Times in 12 Posts
ZamaZalotta has slipped a little
Re: Turkish Spring?

Quote:
View Post
Each time the military was involved, it was to bring back the government on track. The military is there to protect the country to fall into Islamist hands and had been doing a great job until now.

They have nothing in common of what has been done in other countries under militarism.
Woooww, hold your horses missy! Did you think that you can get away with your fascist-praising rhetoric here since nobody knows what the real deal is? Shame on you and the likes of you! People were brutally tortured and murdered by the generals and their coups you are praising here. I have friends who do not even have graves to visit. People were killed and dumped or buried in unknown places. Shame on you for having the nerve to type such nonsense, for you blatant ignorance, those people died following a dream which included also you. And you are here writing them off under the pretext of your short skirt. I am appalled. However people clashing in the Taksim square know you, they know your mindset, because you and your mentality ruled this country with your iron Kemalist/Panturkist/Fascist/Militarist fists for decades. When your bannermen entered Taksim square yesterday evening, people were revolting because they were disgusted and refused to walk besides you. So next time you try to spread your ignorance make sure your audience is as ignorant as you are.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank ZamaZalotta for this useful post:
The following 3 users groan at ZamaZalotta for this post:
  #25  
Old 02.06.2013, 14:46
Nil's Avatar
Nil Nil is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Basel
Posts: 10,408
Groaned at 442 Times in 346 Posts
Thanked 16,045 Times in 6,322 Posts
Nil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Turkish Spring?

Quote:
View Post
Woooww, hold your horses missy! Did you think that you can get away with your fascist-praising rhetoric here since nobody knows what the real deal is? Shame on you and the likes of you! People were brutally tortured and murdered by the generals and their coups you are praising here. I have friends who do not even have graves to visit. People were killed and dumped or buried in unknown places. Shame on you for having the nerve to type such nonsense, for you blatant ignorance, those people died following a dream which included also you. And you are here writing them off under the pretext of your short skirt. I am appalled. However people clashing in the Taksim square know you, they know your mindset, because you and your mentality ruled this country with your iron Kemalist/Panturkist/Fascist/Militarist fists for decades. When your bannermen entered Taksim square yesterday evening, people were revolting because they were disgusted and refused to walk besides you. So next time you try to spread your ignorance make sure your audience is as ignorant as you are.
Eeeeeh,

Maybe you should slow down. You come here accusing me of all the bad thing while not knowing my position on all this matter that I already wrote in height, length and weight on this forum.

Not bad.

I have family members who died by the hand of the army and I have family members who all went to serve in the army. My Kurdish family can tell you all kind of horror stories lived first hand.

Kurdish genocide? I can tell you a long story about it.

Now before to jump in the curtains, read more on the forum about me before to lurk under my skirt.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Nil for this useful post:
  #26  
Old 02.06.2013, 15:09
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zurich
Posts: 17
Groaned at 7 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 18 Times in 12 Posts
ZamaZalotta has slipped a little
Re: Turkish Spring?

Quote:
View Post
Now before to jump in the curtains, read more on the forum about me before to lurk under my skirt.
Sorry missy, I don't do Stasi style personality/background checks on people I get involved with on the internet. I suspect your fascination with military coups leads to such expectations but it aint my style, sorry. You say the military is here to bring back the government on track, you release the Kraken. 1+1=2 simple as that.

PS: Lurking under your skirt? I am on full offense here, challenging your almighty generals. How does that allegory even make sense?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank ZamaZalotta for this useful post:
  #27  
Old 02.06.2013, 15:13
Nil's Avatar
Nil Nil is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Basel
Posts: 10,408
Groaned at 442 Times in 346 Posts
Thanked 16,045 Times in 6,322 Posts
Nil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Turkish Spring?

Quote:
View Post
Sorry missy, I don't do Stasi style personality/background checks on people I get involved with on the internet. I suspect your fascination with military coups leads to such expectations but it aint my style, sorry. You say the military is here to bring back the government on track, you release the Kraken. 1+1=2 simple as that.

PS: Lurking under your skirt? I am on full offense here, challenging your almighty generals. How does that allegory even make sense?
You are the one who bring my skirt in the topic. Now, I don't have a fascination for the army, I don't like what the army does and did in east side of turkey. But I also don't see everything in black and white.

Now lets get back to Occupy Gezi. Any thoughts? Experience?
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 02.06.2013, 17:29
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: CH
Posts: 6,374
Groaned at 221 Times in 172 Posts
Thanked 7,898 Times in 4,265 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Turkish Spring?

Quote:
View Post
What I don't understand about Turkish folk who oppose the headscarf in the name of preserving secularism is that all you have to do is to take a look at places like
Yeap, and also try telling this little girl from the Moravian Wallachia region of Czech Republic she shouldn't wear a headscarf


or to this old little lady from a Romanian village



or to this little Russian babushka


Last edited by greenmount; 02.06.2013 at 18:03.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank greenmount for this useful post:
  #29  
Old 02.06.2013, 17:50
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Genève
Posts: 218
Groaned at 2 Times in 1 Post
Thanked 138 Times in 68 Posts
IronAngle has made some interesting contributions
Re: Turkish Spring?

Quote:
View Post
What I don't understand about Turkish folk who oppose the headscarf in the name of preserving secularism is that all you have to do is to take a look at places like the UK, US & Canada who are hugely successful secular countries and showcase some of the best models of integration between people of different backgrounds (workplace, interpersonal relationships, common interests) and you will find headscarfed women in the workplace, in educational institutions, even in local government. It really leaves me thinking that some secularists are just as extreme as those who they stand to oppose.

In any case, one of the big ironies of this whole headscarf debate in Turkey is this photo of Ataturk. That's his wife sitting with him...

Belgium's first MP with a headscarf, Mahinur Ozdemir, is of Turkish origin:

Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank IronAngle for this useful post:
  #30  
Old 02.06.2013, 18:28
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,165
Groaned at 210 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,404 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Turkish Spring?

Quote:
View Post
1+1=2 simple as that.
There are only 10 types of people: the ones who understand binary and those who don't. Same with Turkey.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Faltrad for this useful post:
  #31  
Old 02.06.2013, 19:09
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Luxembourg
Posts: 10,397
Groaned at 249 Times in 210 Posts
Thanked 18,848 Times in 6,897 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Turkish Spring?

Quote:
View Post
Yeap, and also try telling this little girl from the Moravian Wallachia region of Czech Republic she shouldn't wear a headscarf


or to this old little lady from a Romanian village



or to this little Russian babushka

I have some Buddhists lighting some candles for you in a pattern that is supposed to bring luck:


Seriously, the concept of a symbol is not that hard to understand: Women all over the world used to wear it, but the headscarf IN TURKEY is not just a piece of cloth - it is a symbol with a specific meaning. It does not matter if Mrs Ataturk had one back in the days, my grandma did as well... it matters what the scarf carries for a meaning in this specific society TODAY: While the religious folks will claim that is simply necessary to wear as a believer - millions of Turkish females believe they can be a good Muslim while not wearing it. The reason why the secular side of the political spectrum has TODAY so an extreme and radical stance is because it is an important symbol - for them does it not at all mean "Muslim", it means "Islamist". No woman in Turkey is not aware of its meaning, but the more religious folks would probably rather call it "pious"... but they'd probably all agree that a woman who wears it demonstrates that she is so religious that she'd rather have sharia law and an republic based on Islam.

For the armchair philosophers: Just look at a map. Turkey borders to Iran - which was once one of the most modern Muslim societies. Women enjoyed a lot of freedom till the religious people took over - and are now in one of the countries with the worst legal situation for women. Also men see that it is already damn difficult to have opposing views to Erdogan - but it is nothing compared to be part of the opposition in a theocracy like Iran. Simply put - the ban of headscarfs in universities is an extreme measure. It is a response to an extreme situation. Just as England was more anti-fascist during WW2 than today or the US attitude towards communists in the 50s: They want to nip every step towards a religious state in the bud. I can fully understand them.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank Treverus for this useful post:
  #32  
Old 02.06.2013, 19:32
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Neuchatel
Posts: 21,035
Groaned at 445 Times in 337 Posts
Thanked 23,989 Times in 10,888 Posts
Odile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond reputeOdile has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Turkish Spring?

Your experiences of living in Istanbul are very valuable Nil. And yet, I wonder- when was the last time you visited there or lived there. It may well be that you'd find that a lot has changed in that time - and of course much more outside Istanbul. What do you think. Certainly my ex French assistante, who lives there, with a Turkish Muslim partner- says things have really 'hardened' up in the past few years and she is under constant pressure to 'change' both in manner, dress, attitude, etc.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Odile for this useful post:
  #33  
Old 02.06.2013, 19:49
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 5,726
Groaned at 189 Times in 148 Posts
Thanked 11,897 Times in 4,044 Posts
k_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Turkish Spring?

Quote:
View Post
Certainly my ex French assistante, who lives there, with a Turkish Muslim partner- says things have really 'hardened' up in the past few years and she is under constant pressure to 'change' both in manner, dress, attitude, etc.
Friends and family in Istanbul are saying the same things. It is going backward rapidly there.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank k_and_e for this useful post:
  #34  
Old 02.06.2013, 20:29
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Zurich
Posts: 195
Groaned at 50 Times in 31 Posts
Thanked 105 Times in 74 Posts
stevesim is considered unworthystevesim is considered unworthystevesim is considered unworthy
Re: Turkish Spring?

Quote:
View Post
Woooww, hold your horses missy! Did you think that you can get away with your fascist-praising rhetoric here since nobody knows what the real deal is? Shame on you and the likes of you! People were brutally tortured and murdered by the generals and their coups you are praising here. I have friends who do not even have graves to visit. People were killed and dumped or buried in unknown places. Shame on you for having the nerve to type such nonsense, for you blatant ignorance, those people died following a dream which included also you. And you are here writing them off under the pretext of your short skirt. I am appalled. However people clashing in the Taksim square know you, they know your mindset, because you and your mentality ruled this country with your iron Kemalist/Panturkist/Fascist/Militarist fists for decades. When your bannermen entered Taksim square yesterday evening, people were revolting because they were disgusted and refused to walk besides you. So next time you try to spread your ignorance make sure your audience is as ignorant as you are.
I thought this was directed at me, but it wasn't. Yeah, Nil sounds like a fascist but maybe she isn't.

Last edited by stevesim; 02.06.2013 at 20:32. Reason: explained in the post
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 02.06.2013, 20:33
Nil's Avatar
Nil Nil is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Basel
Posts: 10,408
Groaned at 442 Times in 346 Posts
Thanked 16,045 Times in 6,322 Posts
Nil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond reputeNil has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Turkish Spring?

Quote:
View Post
Your experiences of living in Istanbul are very valuable Nil. And yet, I wonder- when was the last time you visited there or lived there. It may well be that you'd find that a lot has changed in that time - and of course much more outside Istanbul. What do you think. Certainly my ex French assistante, who lives there, with a Turkish Muslim partner- says things have really 'hardened' up in the past few years and she is under constant pressure to 'change' both in manner, dress, attitude, etc.
Quote:
View Post
Friends and family in Istanbul are saying the same things. It is going backward rapidly there.
Indeed,

I have been there in September and I could feel the changes. While the Asian side like Kadikoy more people showing off there skin, there have been an increase of headscarves too.

Prohibitions of headscarves in public institutions never stopped women who didn't want to show their hair to hide them by wearing special bandanas in hospital or wigs at schools for exemple. It also protected those who were pressure to wear it by family members. I saw more little girls wearing it now when it is obviously not their own choices. Normally, women who start wearing scarves do it when they become a woman (first period) or later in life. Not when they are 5-6-7 years old.

I have family members who wear it but the majority don't. I am glad to see that this isn't push down our throat.

Still, the Occupy Gezi isn't about this. It is about democracy, freedom of speech and the right of manifestations. What is happening now in Turkey is going against what we have been free to do. Restrictions of alcohol consumption, expression of affection, of manifestations and freedom of speech isn't something Turks will let go.

One can just look how all medias are under censorship to understand how far AKP is willing to go.

What I find absolutely wonderful is to see people from all background, political views, beliefs of all ages, standing up with each other. Kurdish parties are walking with opposite parties (with whom they have been fighting for decades) communists, socialists, poors and richs demanding the same thing.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Nil for this useful post:
  #36  
Old 02.06.2013, 20:40
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 173
Groaned at 13 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 392 Times in 245 Posts
leonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond reputeleonie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Turkish Spring?

Who is organizing these protests?
By the way, is Turkey still trading gold with Iran?
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 02.06.2013, 20:43
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Zurich
Posts: 5,726
Groaned at 189 Times in 148 Posts
Thanked 11,897 Times in 4,044 Posts
k_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond reputek_and_e has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Turkish Spring?

Quote:
View Post
Who is organizing these protests?
It is the powerful Levantine Tavla Association.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank k_and_e for this useful post:
  #38  
Old 02.06.2013, 22:06
lk_1991's Avatar
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Greece
Posts: 2
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post
lk_1991 has no particular reputation at present
Re: Turkish Spring?

There is also a chance that the Turkish Armed Forces are behind these riots to overthrow Erdogan and get some Aegean oil.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 02.06.2013, 22:24
Kash_Z's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Zurich
Posts: 453
Groaned at 3 Times in 2 Posts
Thanked 594 Times in 195 Posts
Kash_Z has a reputation beyond reputeKash_Z has a reputation beyond reputeKash_Z has a reputation beyond reputeKash_Z has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Turkish Spring?

btw. what's with all the Communist flags? I thought people were exaggerating how many there were, but i've seen quite a few images like this one...

Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 02.06.2013, 22:29
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: At home
Posts: 4,165
Groaned at 210 Times in 135 Posts
Thanked 6,404 Times in 2,719 Posts
Faltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond reputeFaltrad has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Turkish Spring?

Quote:
View Post
btw. what's with all the Communist flags?
Seems to be the TKP, turkish communist party.
Otherwise, it's usually the Kurds. Not necessarily the PKK but it can be it.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Turkish dishes Phos Food and drink 17 17.05.2013 15:17
Turkish Jewellery HappyCreature Other/general 0 30.04.2012 17:00
Good turkish restaurant monte82 Entertainment & dining 4 08.02.2012 16:55
Turkish Restaurants Laudable Entertainment & dining 6 06.04.2011 00:55


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 13:10.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0