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  #61  
Old 03.06.2013, 13:50
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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Sure, it could be a bad idea. This is strange though that the EU is calling for new negotiations of Turkey's EU membership now, after a long interruption, if the situation in Turkey really deteriorated in recent years.
Clearly the EU doesn't want to lose Turkey to the East.

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Old 03.06.2013, 13:53
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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Sure, it could be a bad idea. This is strange though that the EU is calling for new negotiations of Turkey's EU membership now, after a long interruption, if the situation in Turkey really deteriorated in recent years.
Well, as much as I don't like Erdogan, I have to admit he did great for the economy of the country. He managed to place the country as an important negotiator in the Middle East.

The development in the country in the last years have no contest regarding exportations and infrastructures.
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  #63  
Old 03.06.2013, 14:20
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Re: Turkish Spring?

I don't think Erdogan is operating in a political vacuum. He is merely reflecting the will of his constituents in the present situations at hand. Erdogan performed well when dealing with practical and pragmatic problems. From the looks of it, the country took a very hard turn to the religious conservative right. The autocratic version of Erdogan can't be bothered to eloquate and articulate what he is doing. It is apparently a more radical position he is confident in taking. I doubt Turks will overthrow him, because moderate Turks are more likely to acquiesce to authority.
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Old 03.06.2013, 14:29
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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I doubt Turks will overthrow him, because moderate Turks are more likely to acquiesce to authority.
Yeah, but whose authority?
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  #65  
Old 03.06.2013, 14:42
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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Yeah, but whose authority?
In the case of Turkey, that would be Allah, and whoever he appoints over the country. The Quran said so. All in all, it means the people get the governments they deserve.
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  #66  
Old 03.06.2013, 14:56
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Re: Turkish Spring?

I have asked myself wether I wanted to join this discussion since it is a complex topic and I am certainly not an expert so i risk saying things that are not completely correct. But I am very interested in what happens at the moment and the background of it.

I lived in turkey for 1 year in 2005 with an exchange program, I went to a turkish school, lived in a turkish family. I learned about turkeys secularism, the role of ataturk etc. I got confronted with the complexity of it all when trying to explain to my european friends that there were not that many people wearing a headscarve, and how modern it was, but yet with problems and issues that couldn't be ignored (large differences between city and countryside, minority issues ...).

The last years erdogan has pushed through a lot of changes to make turkey evolve away form secularism and democracy. But he has mostly done it without the international political scene even noticing. He is a clever man, one must give him that. Some changes were even considered as positive by the EU while actually they were just strengthening the power of his party and himself. Some are small changes, that don't make the news here. For example changes to the education system were he changed the structure a bit so that kids could go to imam schools at an earlyer age. The number of imam schools has also increased drastically compared to when I lived there. Some changes were talked off in international press such as people not being allowed to show affection in public, the alcohol law etc. and we do all now that these changes are not positive, but he talks himself out of it. And after all, he does well economically which according to some proofs that he means the best for his country.
The huge building projects he started and is still persuing, create work. But I don't have to tell you what kind of leaders such projects make me think of.
When I was in turkey last time in september I realised a lot of my friends and (host)familymembers were very disapointed about the way their country is going. At the same moment we were talking about this there was a 3 minuts advertising clip for AKparty on the television. Showing happy people living a dream life. My husband who was in turkey for the first time couldn't believe his eyes, it looked really propagandistic (or however you say that). This wouldn't have happened at the time I lived there.
And now the people are protesting because they want the freedom back they slowly lost over the last years. They dont want to be afraid to tell there opinion, they want their media back,... and I understand them, but at the same time I find it difficult to explain this to other people in europe. As most of us don't know how it was, and we don't understand the impact Erdogans gevernment had on the society, and most of all, we don't understand many of the pecularities of turkish society, the importance of the form of state that was introduced by ataturk, including the prohibition of fez and headscarf, and the importance of the army.
Especially the part about the army is quite difficult, as also became clear on this forum. It has as its task to preserve the secular state, and is a very important part in turkish society. Even though you (and I, and lots of turkish people) disapprove of some things the army did, you can not deny its historical importance. And therefore, someone who says the military is there to bring the government back on track is not an army freek nor a facist. Just about any of my turkish friends could have said that sentence, and they are certainly not all army freaks.

So my question to the real experts. I read today that, according to a belgian newspaper, one of the reasons for the protest is the the position of erdogan in the syrian conflict. Can anybody explain what the link is here?

A little bit of topic I would also be happy with resources on the different coups, the how and what, as I never understood it in detail and I would like to.
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  #67  
Old 03.06.2013, 15:31
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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Especially the part about the army is quite difficult, as also became clear on this forum. It has as its task to preserve the secular state, and is a very important part in turkish society. Even though you (and I, and lots of turkish people) disapprove of some things the army did, you can not deny its historical importance. And therefore, someone who says the military is there to bring the government back on track is not an army freek nor a facist. Just about any of my turkish friends could have said that sentence, and they are certainly not all army freaks..
I can understand the reasons for which the army gets support, but this is so far away from a democracy, having them act as a guaranty and bring the government back on track. It means they have the ultimate power, and that is more or less permanent; it means all their wrongs are generally overlooked for the sake of the "greater good". Absolute power corrupts. (in my book) But probably the best option available for now.
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  #68  
Old 03.06.2013, 15:31
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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....
So my question to the real experts. I read today that, according to a belgian newspaper, one of the reasons for the protest is the the position of erdogan in the syrian conflict. Can anybody explain what the link is here?
....
I would also love to hear the answer from the real experts to this one!

I was puzzled that such massive protests started with the small park issue. I have checked the news a few days back. If you remember there was a deadly terrorist attack in Turkey on 11th of May in a town close to the Syrian border. In the news I have found the reports of the protests in Turkey on 12, 17, 18, 19 of May, with violent clashes with police and connected to the government position on Syria. The question is -- have those protests that we are seeing now really started with the park controversy or maybe with the terror attack earlier? And at exactly the same time Obama and Erdogan were discussing Syria in the White House Rose Garden...
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  #69  
Old 03.06.2013, 16:20
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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In the case of Turkey, that would be Allah, and whoever he appoints over the country. The Quran said so. All in all, it means the people get the governments they deserve.
I am sorry but this isn't at all the Turkish mentality.
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  #70  
Old 03.06.2013, 16:51
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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I can understand the reasons for which the army gets support, but this is so far away from a democracy, having them act as a guaranty and bring the government back on track.
I do not agree. The founders of Turkey knew perfectly well what they were doing when they decided to make Turkey secular. They saw that Europe was advancing while the middle east was not. They also perfectly well knew that the religious folks will come time and again and attempt to push their agenda through. They also knew that most surrounding nations had no strong democracy but some dictators "pretending to be democratic". They gave the army the job to defend the freedom of the Turkish people against anyone who wants to limit it.

Germany has for example a similar clause in the constitution - if any future government including democratically elected ones try to change certain parts of the constitution on the basic civil rights has the army the job to take this government out. We call it militant democracy. Looks like Turkey needs this concept more than most countries, but it does not make it undemocratic or totalitarian.
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  #71  
Old 03.06.2013, 17:00
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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I would also love to hear the answer from the real experts to this one!

I was puzzled that such massive protests started with the small park issue. I have checked the news a few days back. If you remember there was a deadly terrorist attack in Turkey on 11th of May in a town close to the Syrian border. In the news I have found the reports of the protests in Turkey on 12, 17, 18, 19 of May, with violent clashes with police and connected to the government position on Syria. The question is -- have those protests that we are seeing now really started with the park controversy or maybe with the terror attack earlier? And at exactly the same time Obama and Erdogan were discussing Syria in the White House Rose Garden...
Well I am not expert but I believe I can give some insight. I am from Turkey( born and raised) and out of the country for a very short while.

First Syria; what Erdogan does needs to be seen in two parts. The Government provides shelter and health services the people who wants to run away from Syria. This is supported by 95% of the Turkish people if not all. However, then Erdogan and his government provides weapons to those people and sends them back to the other side of the border every morning and takes them back in the evening. This is certainly not acceptable.One note, this is fully supported by the EU as well.

Second point is about the existing resistance.Yes, the park and idea of cutting down the trees was the ignitor. It was a peace ful protest of approximately 20 people. The reaction they received from the police can be seen below.


after this the protests has been directed towards the police and also the government who directs the police force.

You should see this a tipping point after all the changes happened in Turkey in the last 10 years.

Regarding the comments on the economy, the complete picture is alittle different than how it looks. In the first 5 years the Erdogan government has applied the politics of the former government, namely the politics of Kemal Dervis. But today they have failed to address the necessary innovation and technology steps to proceed further. The main reason behind is that Erdogan heavily relies on the votes of the uneducated people, hence he has little to no motivation towards improving the education level of the people. In fact, the least so called educational reform has enabled the government to open over 1000 of Islamic schools. They introduced the life of Mohammed as a mandatory selective class. To sum, the real picture is not as good as it seems and the direction is not going towards any good.

Turkey has a very untidemocratic constitution and everybody agrees that it needs ot be changed;however, what Erdogan wants is a presidential system without a senate and some other control mechanism. This shall never happen and people are very concerned with the this idea.


However, I believe it is way too early to say that the current protests will ignite something big. The "good" this is Erdogan shows no signs of regret on what is happening and he keeps on threatening people.

So, go on "RESISTANBUL"!!!

Hope i could help.

Blue.
P.S: sorry have to leave to the airport, so have no time for proof reading

Last edited by Dark Blue; 03.06.2013 at 17:05. Reason: additional note
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  #72  
Old 03.06.2013, 17:23
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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I am sorry but this isn't at all the Turkish mentality.
Yes, I know Turks who do not have that mentality, yet Erdogan's Justice and Development Party is quite rooted in Islamism, which is the direction Erdogan is taking. Erdogan famously said, "The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldier"

Sentimentally, I'd love to see the population determine a direction more compatible with Europe. But the JDP (AKP) is the largest party, and I assume democratically elected.
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  #73  
Old 03.06.2013, 17:26
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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Yes, I know Turks who do not have that mentality, yet Erdogan's Justice and Development Party is quite rooted in Islamism, which is the direction Erdogan is taking. Erdogan famously said, "The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldier"

Sentimentally, I'd love to see the population determine a direction more compatible with Europe. But the JDP (AKP) is the largest party, and I assume democratically elected.
Justice and Development Party: the name is so full of sarcasm.
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  #74  
Old 03.06.2013, 17:34
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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Yes, I know Turks who do not have that mentality, yet Erdogan's Justice and Development Party is quite rooted in Islamism, which is the direction Erdogan is taking. Erdogan famously said, "The mosques are our barracks, the domes our helmets, the minarets our bayonets and the faithful our soldier"

Sentimentally, I'd love to see the population determine a direction more compatible with Europe. But the JDP (AKP) is the largest party, and I assume democratically elected.
It did, true. But you also have to keep in mind that this party target uneducated people and control the medias. If you spend a day watching Turkish channels you will see how brain numbing the experience is. Stupid drama shows, lots of violence, little education, live shows that you want to put a bullet in your head, news made of stupid informations with lots of dramatic music in the background and headlines with little contains and poor journalism.

It is a bad dream of Daily Mail at its best with background music and :Flash, Flash, Flash!!! Written all over the screen.

The government control its people by keeping them entertain with stupid news and poor information. Meanwhile, those who have the chance to reach higher education are very, very aware of how things are.

And we see it in the street today.

If you are interested here is a twitter you can follow. Mostly in Turkish but the pictures need no translations. #occupygezi.
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  #75  
Old 03.06.2013, 17:59
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Re: Turkish Spring?

It seems tomorrow and for 2 days there will be a general strike in Istanbul to support the protest.
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  #76  
Old 03.06.2013, 18:09
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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It did, true. But you also have to keep in mind that this party target uneducated people and control the medias. If you spend a day watching Turkish channels you will see how brain numbing the experience is. Stupid drama shows, lots of violence, little education, live shows that you want to put a bullet in your head, news made of stupid informations with lots of dramatic music in the background and headlines with little contains and poor journalism.

It is a bad dream of Daily Mail at its best with background music and :Flash, Flash, Flash!!! Written all over the screen.

The government control its people by keeping them entertain with stupid news and poor information. Meanwhile, those who have the chance to reach higher education are very, very aware of how things are.

And we see it in the street today.

If you are interested here is a twitter you can follow. Mostly in Turkish but the pictures need no translations. #occupygezi.
Glad to see people demonstrate for what they value in life. But I think it is a mistake to try to over-throw the government in this round. It will simply crack down on dissent, banning certain groups, and potentially killing a lot of people. Yes, they are capable of it and have done so in the past. Government over-throws are very messy, are often followed by chaos and lead to lots of lives lost. It is best to use this round for building up a legitimate political front. Turkey has a constitution. That is already a huge accomplishment. Is there a need to invalidate it? If not, work through it and according to it.

I wanted to visit Turkey, but I will not going until I can have a nice stiff drink and kiss in public.
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  #77  
Old 03.06.2013, 18:13
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Re: Turkish Spring?

A man died after being roll on by a polis truck.

People badly injured

Police hiding in taxi car to shot tear gas to people in the street.
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Old 03.06.2013, 21:25
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Re: Turkish Spring?

Watch this video for images.
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Old 03.06.2013, 21:44
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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At the moment it is no longer a small environmentalist protest. It is now about ordinary people having had enough of an arrogant government, violations of democratic rights, lack of accountability in governmental matters, arbitrariness in the legislative, recent state interventions on “public morality”, police brutality and a patronizing, cocky prime minister, namely Recep Tayyip Erdogan.
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The most significant quality of #occupygezi protests is its participants. Many of them are middle class citizens who used to have no political engagement at all. Yet the crowd is very diverse; there are leftists, liberals, Kurdish political activists, nationalists, Muslim activists, members of the Christian minorities, the LGBT community, students, professionals, workers, prostitutes, elderly people and so on. In short, individuals who were raised in a politically apathetic fashion decided to take action and raise their voices. These people are simply fed up with a moral whoring government that aims to engineer a “youth” consisting of conservative, non-smoking, non-drinking, hard-working, consumerist citizens (Erdogan’s own words).
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Note: A lesser known fact about the Taksim Gezi Park’s history:

Between 1931 and 1939 the historical Armenian graveyard of the Surp Krikor Lusarovich Church in Taksim was illegally confiscated and demolished by the early republican government (CHP), as a part of the cultural/ethnical discrimination and oppression policy towards the non-Muslim/non-Turkish peoples of Turkey. This historical Armenian graveyard encompassed most of the surrounding areas around Taksim Square, on whose parts then various hotels and the state radio building were raised. Finally the historical Armenian tombstones were used to pave the ground of the newly built park, as an act of utter racist insult and intimidation against the Armenian community.

We will neither ever forget nor let anyone conceal this crime committed against our fellow Armenian citizens.
More here about the whole story

Citizens resist
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Old 03.06.2013, 22:07
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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So my question to the real experts. I read today that, according to a belgian newspaper, one of the reasons for the protest is the the position of erdogan in the syrian conflict. Can anybody explain what the link is here?
I'm not an expert at all, but from what I understand Turkey has been used as an entrance point for rebel fighters going to Syria. People who want to join the rebels take a plane to Turkey and get escorted by the police to the Syrian border where they get trained in camps.

Firstly, I doubt the Turkish public approves of this. Secondly, some of these same people may have been behind the bombings that were mentioned in previous posts, therefore making them even less popular with the Turkish people.
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