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  #161  
Old 12.06.2013, 13:08
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Re: Turkish Spring?

From today's Guardian "Erdoğan only has himself to blame for the damage done to Turkey's international image. Hubristic, peevish, and not a little paranoid, only he has the power to reverse this."
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  #162  
Old 12.06.2013, 13:20
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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http://www.eu-mindestloehne.info/
*********************************************

You just proved that there is no minimum wage system in the EU.
There are countries with minimum wages but no EU standard.
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  #163  
Old 13.06.2013, 00:30
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Re: Turkish Spring?

State censorship in action!
"Turkey’s broadcasting watchdog slapped fines on four television stations that had broadcast live footage of the demonstrations that were ignored by their mainstream rivals. "
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  #164  
Old 13.06.2013, 06:52
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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You just proved that there is no minimum wage system in the EU.
There are countries with minimum wages but no EU standard.
What the carpet trader in Istanbul referred to was exactly THIS above, which means that they fear that A) the E.U. would press Turkey into adopting one of those minimums and B) that the E.U. in its permanently ongoing centralisation WILL adapt an EU-wide wages-minimum before long

The other aspect is that Turkey has important "pending" matters like Kurdistan, Armenia, the relations with Uzbekistan/Kazakhstan/Turkemenistan. Not only Mr Erdogan but many of his predecessors have worked on these issues, but none is concluded yet

And finally again, there is the strategic question whether Turkey really should try to join the EU as a full member or rather aim for better bilateral deals with the EU and stay outside the EU °apparaturs"
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  #165  
Old 16.06.2013, 01:37
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Re: Turkish Spring?

Tonight "Hundreds of riot police used teargas and water cannons today to storm the protest camp at the centre of Turkey's anti-government unrest, following a warning by Turkey's prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, that protesters should quit Gezi Park or be removed by security forces."

Erdogan cannot win this by force; in fact force is counter productive.
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  #166  
Old 16.06.2013, 09:11
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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Tonight "Hundreds of riot police used teargas and water cannons today to storm the protest camp at the centre of Turkey's anti-government unrest, following a warning by Turkey's prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, that protesters should quit Gezi Park or be removed by security forces."

Erdogan cannot win this by force; in fact force is counter productive.
Police charged the park where there were children, elderly people and youngsters enjoying songs, library, food, painting, and many other family activities.

They attacked with water canon and tear gas. It has been reported by doctors that the water used has chemical diluted into it which burn the skin. There are hundreds of pictures of it.

The police attacked also Divan Hotel where people where getting protection from the police and was being treated by the doctors.
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  #167  
Old 16.06.2013, 13:31
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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It has been reported by doctors that the water used has chemical diluted into it which burn the skin.
Sure, that is standard practice in riot police units all over the world since at least the early 1960s... long before tear gas grenades became popular. Extremely normal during the European student protests of 1968.

It's pretty much the point of a water cannon - delivering nonlethal agents to protestors to make them stop protesting... not to make them wet.
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  #168  
Old 16.06.2013, 15:41
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Re: Turkish Spring?

I think he made a tactical mistake clearing the park where he had most protestors in one place. I would now be using Twitter to set up new demonstrations at all hours of the day and night and all over the city with aim of makkng the police run around and exhausting them
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  #169  
Old 17.06.2013, 01:28
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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Police charged the park where there were children, elderly people and youngsters enjoying songs, library, food, painting, and many other family activities.

They attacked with water canon and tear gas. It has been reported by doctors that the water used has chemical diluted into it which burn the skin. There are hundreds of pictures of it.

The police attacked also Divan Hotel where people where getting protection from the police and was being treated by the doctors.
It is also said they attacked medical facilities where people were being treated.
I quote "This is against all human rights agreements. A serious crime. Not even in war should medical facilities be attacked"

The people involved should bring a petition to the UN Disability Committee &/or to the European Court of Human Rights.
Turkey is the country with the highest number of such petitions against it so it may take some time to reach a judgement.

Last edited by marton; 18.06.2013 at 13:21.
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  #170  
Old 14.08.2013, 16:14
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Re: Turkish Spring?

From the Gatestone Institute (whoever they are?) see here
Some quotes;
The Turkish judicial system, now under the control of the radicalizing Islamist Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan and his Justice and Development Party, or AKP, concluded on August 5 the six-year trial of military officers, secular politicians, and journalists, known as the "Ergenekon case."

The list of defendants is as varied as it is long; the single aspect uniting them, however, is association with secular politics. Erdogan and AKP have manipulated and changed the law to pursue half the armed forces leadership, as well as media personalities, elected opposition politicians, lawyers, authors, and entrepreneurs.

Turkish commentators point out that many of the accused were convicted without evidence on opinions rather than on overt actions. Former Gendarmerie Forces (National Police) Commander Sener Eruygur received an "aggravated life sentence" a punishment reserved for terrorism cases, in solitary confinement, with limited exercise time and contact with other prisoners or by telephone with family, and no opportunity for parole.

Early last year the prominent New York author Paul Auster refused to visit Turkey for a book tour in protest against its status as the world's leading state locking up journalists. As reported by the London Financial Times, AKP deputy chairman Bulent Gedikli, in a frenzy of fantasies, described Auster as part of an anti-Turkish network, "the Neocon-Ergenekon cadre."
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  #171  
Old 14.08.2013, 23:55
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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From the Gatestone Institute (whoever they are?) see here
Some quotes;
The Turkish judicial system, now under the control of the radicalizing Islamist Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan and his Justice and Development Party, or AKP, concluded on August 5 the six-year trial of military officers, secular politicians, and journalists, known as the "Ergenekon case."

The list of defendants is as varied as it is long; the single aspect uniting them, however, is association with secular politics. Erdogan and AKP have manipulated and changed the law to pursue half the armed forces leadership, as well as media personalities, elected opposition politicians, lawyers, authors, and entrepreneurs.

Turkish commentators point out that many of the accused were convicted without evidence on opinions rather than on overt actions. Former Gendarmerie Forces (National Police) Commander Sener Eruygur received an "aggravated life sentence" a punishment reserved for terrorism cases, in solitary confinement, with limited exercise time and contact with other prisoners or by telephone with family, and no opportunity for parole.

Early last year the prominent New York author Paul Auster refused to visit Turkey for a book tour in protest against its status as the world's leading state locking up journalists. As reported by the London Financial Times, AKP deputy chairman Bulent Gedikli, in a frenzy of fantasies, described Auster as part of an anti-Turkish network, "the Neocon-Ergenekon cadre."
I wouldnt take this Ergenekon business lightly, and many minorities in Turkey would agree with me, including Kurds, Armenians, Jews, Greeks, Alevi's, etc, who suffered at the hands of these guys. Getting rid of the shadowy remnants of the cold war is the best thing that has happened in Turkey recently.

FYI, ex-military men like your Sener Eruygur were adherents of the weirdest of ideologies that somehow fuses together ultra-nationalism, socialism, anti-western views, and an oppressive version of secularism that can only be seen in countries like China or North Korea.

Finally, on the so called "Turkish Spring", we now can clearly say that Turkish people and government showed great restraint and did not mess it up like some other countries, keeping things at a minimum and finally cooling down, hopefully for cool headed discussion and reconciliation. I'd say Turkey has passed this test of democracy.
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  #172  
Old 15.08.2013, 00:32
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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I wouldnt take this Ergenekon business lightly, and many minorities in Turkey would agree with me, including Kurds, Armenians, Jews, Greeks, Alevi's, etc, who suffered at the hands of these guys. Getting rid of the shadowy remnants of the cold war is the best thing that has happened in Turkey recently.

FYI, ex-military men like your Sener Eruygur were adherents of the weirdest of ideologies that somehow fuses together ultra-nationalism, socialism, anti-western views, and an oppressive version of secularism that can only be seen in countries like China or North Korea.

Finally, on the so called "Turkish Spring", we now can clearly say that Turkish people and government showed great restraint and did not mess it up like some other countries, keeping things at a minimum and finally cooling down, hopefully for cool headed discussion and reconciliation. I'd say Turkey has passed this test of democracy.
About "I wouldnt take this Ergenekon business lightly"
I don't - I think it is disgraceful that so many people have been locked up on such flimy evidence. Who can take seriously a claim that circa 250 people were planning a coup? Coups are usually planned & executed by a handful of people; this is an absurd contention & an insult to intelligent people.

About "I'd say Turkey has passed this test of democracy"

I would say you have a strange idea of democracy. Jailing elected opposition MPs on very flimsy evidence is a strange way to promote democracy.

About "Turkish people and government showed great restraint"

I quote
"Hundreds of riot police used teargas and water cannons to storm the protest camp at the centre of Turkey's anti-government unrest"
"they attacked medical facilities where people were being treated."

Where do you see this great restraint?

About "Getting rid of the shadowy remnants of the cold war"
"Cold war"!!?? What on earth are you talking about? The cold war finished over 20 years ago & anyway Turkey was never involved.
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  #173  
Old 15.08.2013, 01:11
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Re: Turkish Spring?

you seem to not know that Turkey has a history of military coups roughly every 10 years in the last 50 years, and that the last two (1980, 1996) were done by the entire Turkish Armed Forces, under full command and control of the General Chiefs of Staff. Thats more like 500,000 military personnel involved. see, this is not your "usual" coups

hey, there is also a recent example in Egypt that involved the entire army, so i guess its safe to say that you are not an expert in the history of military coups

What happened (and subsided) in Turkey is nothing compared to whats happening in Egypt, for example. one of the jailed MP has been released, and other one (who was also a journalist) got life sentence because apparently he was a ring leader in the coup (essentially provoking generals to topple the government, according to one of the generals who confessed and got a reduced sentence)

The nature of the protests and the violence by both sides (protesters and police) is more comparable to what happened during "occupy wall street" than whats happening in egypt, syria, etc.

On cold-war, you are not a good reader of history, but thats ok. Turkey WAS the main WESTERN post just southwest of Soviets, housed hundreds of US nuclear missiles in Incirlik AF base, and was one of the countries involved in the CUBAN MISSILE CRISIS that almost brought forth nuclear Armageddon (others: CUBA, USA, RUSSIA).

Stay-behind paramilitary organizations were set up by NATO in countries like Turkey that risked an invasion by the Soviets, and ERGENEKON is the name of the Turkish organization, which was called GLADIO in Italy, by the way.

Italians got rid of their cold-war relics by a massive judicial-police operation long time ago, this is what Turkey has been doing recently

Finally, i dont know why and how you managed to get such a one-sided reading of the recent events in Turkey. Look, seriously, you dont want Turkey being ruled by the generals, they can only bring trouble to Europe.
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  #174  
Old 15.08.2013, 08:55
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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I wouldnt take this Ergenekon business lightly, and many minorities in Turkey would agree with me, including Kurds, Armenians, Jews, Greeks, Alevi's, etc, who suffered at the hands of these guys. Getting rid of the shadowy remnants of the cold war is the best thing that has happened in Turkey recently.

FYI, ex-military men like your Sener Eruygur were adherents of the weirdest of ideologies that somehow fuses together ultra-nationalism, socialism, anti-western views, and an oppressive version of secularism that can only be seen in countries like China or North Korea.

Finally, on the so called "Turkish Spring", we now can clearly say that Turkish people and government showed great restraint and did not mess it up like some other countries, keeping things at a minimum and finally cooling down, hopefully for cool headed discussion and reconciliation. I'd say Turkey has passed this test of democracy.
Are you Recep Erdogan?
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  #175  
Old 15.08.2013, 14:45
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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you seem to not know that Turkey has a history of military coups roughly every 10 years in the last 50 years, and that the last two (1980, 1996) were done by the entire Turkish Armed Forces, under full command and control of the General Chiefs of Staff. Thats more like 500,000 military personnel involved. see, this is not your "usual" coups

hey, there is also a recent example in Egypt that involved the entire army, so i guess its safe to say that you are not an expert in the history of military coups

What happened (and subsided) in Turkey is nothing compared to whats happening in Egypt, for example. one of the jailed MP has been released, and other one (who was also a journalist) got life sentence because apparently he was a ring leader in the coup (essentially provoking generals to topple the government, according to one of the generals who confessed and got a reduced sentence)

The nature of the protests and the violence by both sides (protesters and police) is more comparable to what happened during "occupy wall street" than whats happening in egypt, syria, etc.

On cold-war, you are not a good reader of history, but thats ok. Turkey WAS the main WESTERN post just southwest of Soviets, housed hundreds of US nuclear missiles in Incirlik AF base, and was one of the countries involved in the CUBAN MISSILE CRISIS that almost brought forth nuclear Armageddon (others: CUBA, USA, RUSSIA).

Stay-behind paramilitary organizations were set up by NATO in countries like Turkey that risked an invasion by the Soviets, and ERGENEKON is the name of the Turkish organization, which was called GLADIO in Italy, by the way.

Italians got rid of their cold-war relics by a massive judicial-police operation long time ago, this is what Turkey has been doing recently

Finally, i dont know why and how you managed to get such a one-sided reading of the recent events in Turkey. Look, seriously, you dont want Turkey being ruled by the generals, they can only bring trouble to Europe.
About "you seem to not know that Turkey has a history of military coups roughly every 10 years in the last 50 years"
I do know; question is "was that a good thing or a bad thing?"

About "Thats more like 500,000 military personnel involved"
I was talking about the planners being a small number not the foot soldiers who go where they are instructed.

About "there is also a recent example in Egypt that involved the entire army"
So far as I understand it was planned and managed by Egyptian army chief Gen. Abdel-Fattah El-Sisi with a small team in support.

About "Turkey housed hundreds of US nuclear missiles in Incirlik AF base"
Having US weapons stored in an US base in a country does not make it "involved" in the cold war; warships sail on the sea but the sea is not "involved".
Anyway since 1963 the only nuclear weapons stored in Incirlik AF base are gravity bombs (ca. 90 B-61s) which cannot be delivered. Because the Turks do not allow US nuclear capable bombers in Incirlik & there are no nuclear capable & trained Turkish bombers.

About ".... was one of the countries involved in the CUBAN MISSILE CRISIS" Involved!! The only involvement the Turks coud have had would be to stand outside Incirlik & wave handkerchiefs as the US bombers flew away.

about "Finally, i dont know why and how you managed to get such a one-sided reading of the recent events in Turkey"

I clearly stated this in my post but any way here it is again

"From the Gatestone Institute (whoever they are?) see here"
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  #176  
Old 15.08.2013, 15:43
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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About "you seem to not know that Turkey has a history of military coups roughly every 10 years in the last 50 years"
I do know; question is "was that a good thing or a bad thing?"

About "Thats more like 500,000 military personnel involved"
I was talking about the planners being a small number not the foot soldiers who go where they are instructed.

About "there is also a recent example in Egypt that involved the entire army"
So far as I understand it was planned and managed by Egyptian army chief Gen. Abdel-Fattah El-Sisi with a small team in support.

About "Turkey housed hundreds of US nuclear missiles in Incirlik AF base"
Having US weapons stored in an US base in a country does not make it "involved" in the cold war; warships sail on the sea but the sea is not "involved".
Anyway since 1963 the only nuclear weapons stored in Incirlik AF base are gravity bombs (ca. 90 B-61s) which cannot be delivered. Because the Turks do not allow US nuclear capable bombers in Incirlik & there are no nuclear capable & trained Turkish bombers.

About ".... was one of the countries involved in the CUBAN MISSILE CRISIS" Involved!! The only involvement the Turks coud have had would be to stand outside Incirlik & wave handkerchiefs as the US bombers flew away.

about "Finally, i dont know why and how you managed to get such a one-sided reading of the recent events in Turkey"

I clearly stated this in my post but any way here it is again

"From the Gatestone Institute (whoever they are?) see here"

if you are satisfied with your answers, i will rest my case...BUT, i just cant help to demonstrate your ignorance or willingness to misinform. Here is an example:

from:

The Cuban Missile Crisis: A Nuclear Order of Battle October/November 1962 by
Robert S. Norris A Presentation at the Woodrow Wilson Center
October 24, 2012


"The Cuban missile crisis was resolved in part on October 28, 1962 with Khrushchev’s agreement to remove the ballistic missiles from Cuba and President Kennedy’s non-public promise to remove the Jupiters in Turkey. On 17 January 1963, the U.S. announced the phase out of the one Jupiter squadron in Turkey and six days later, on 23 January, the Turkish government announced the phase out as well. The missiles were removed from alert in April 1963 and the last IRBM was shipped in July. “On April 25, 1963, six months after the Cuban missile crisis, McNamara informed President Kennedy, ‘the last Jupiter came down [in Turkey] yesterday,’ and it would be flown out at the end of the week.”102
To compensate and to send a message to the USSR (and to Turkey) the USS Sam Houston, a SSBN carrying 16 Polaris A-2 SLBMs visited Izmir Turkey on April 14, 1963."


FYI: the article is saying that there were JUPITER missiles in Turkey. Will you now accept that you bombed this one, which also means you cant even perform a simple google search on a topic?
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  #177  
Old 15.08.2013, 16:17
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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if you are satisfied with your answers, i will rest my case...BUT, i just cant help to demonstrate your ignorance or willingness to misinform. Here is an example:

from:

The Cuban Missile Crisis: A Nuclear Order of Battle October/November 1962 by
Robert S. Norris A Presentation at the Woodrow Wilson Center
October 24, 2012


"The Cuban missile crisis was resolved in part on October 28, 1962 with Khrushchev’s agreement to remove the ballistic missiles from Cuba and President Kennedy’s non-public promise to remove the Jupiters in Turkey. On 17 January 1963, the U.S. announced the phase out of the one Jupiter squadron in Turkey and six days later, on 23 January, the Turkish government announced the phase out as well. The missiles were removed from alert in April 1963 and the last IRBM was shipped in July. “On April 25, 1963, six months after the Cuban missile crisis, McNamara informed President Kennedy, ‘the last Jupiter came down [in Turkey] yesterday,’ and it would be flown out at the end of the week.”102
To compensate and to send a message to the USSR (and to Turkey) the USS Sam Houston, a SSBN carrying 16 Polaris A-2 SLBMs visited Izmir Turkey on April 14, 1963."


FYI: the article is saying that there were JUPITER missiles in Turkey. Will you now accept that you bombed this one, which also means you cant even perform a simple google search on a topic?
About "the article is saying that there were JUPITER missiles in Turkey"

Which were removed in 1963 which is why I wrote "since 1963 the only nuclear weapons stored in Incirlik AF base are gravity bombs"

By the way, the Turks (unlike the Italians) were not allowed to touch these Jupiters.
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Old 15.08.2013, 17:52
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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About "the article is saying that there were JUPITER missiles in Turkey"

Which were removed in 1963 which is why I wrote "since 1963 the only nuclear weapons stored in Incirlik AF base are gravity bombs"

By the way, the Turks (unlike the Italians) were not allowed to touch these Jupiters.
you are just full of $hit, arent you?

cheers
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  #179  
Old 15.08.2013, 18:49
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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you are just full of $hit, arent you?

cheers
Ah another well reasoned & well thought out post from you
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Old 15.08.2013, 19:42
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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Ah another well reasoned & well thought out post from you
you need much more 's to hide the irrationality and ignorance in your arguments, editing your previous comments could work too
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