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Old 01.06.2013, 23:08
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Turkish Spring?

Looks like the Turkish people finally have really enough of Erdogan and his AK Party. Will his government be the next to fall?
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Old 02.06.2013, 00:39
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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Looks like the Turkish people finally have really enough of Erdogan and his AK Party. Will his government be the next to fall?
Erdoğan got 50% of the vote on an 83% turnout in the last election in 2011. Outside Istanbul and the west coast he has massive support, particularly in rural areas.

The majority of the country probably support the new laws which have lead to the disturbances, regardless of what Istanbul thinks. I don't really see the parallels with Syria/Egypt etc.
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Old 02.06.2013, 01:29
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Re: Turkish Spring?

New laws?
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Old 02.06.2013, 01:33
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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Outside Istanbul and the west coast he has massive support, particularly in rural areas.
Perhaps they should have let the Greeks keep those bits after all?
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Old 02.06.2013, 01:35
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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New laws?
Much stricter alcohol licensing laws, which are viewed as part of a general "Islamicisation" of Turkish law.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22653173

There are also controversial plans to build on a popular park in central Istanbul.
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Old 02.06.2013, 02:17
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Re: Turkish Spring?

The government has been pushing the workshipping of Ataturk down our throat for so long while quietly destroying his legacy.

I am happy of what is going on in Istanbul. I hope Erdogan will be kicked out.
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Old 02.06.2013, 03:47
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Re: Turkish Spring?

I don't follow Turkish politics in detail, but the three headlines I have picked up of late are:

1) while the Eurozone has experienced the turmoil that we all know these past few years, the Turkish economy in contrast has been extremely strong

2) Erdogan's govt just paid off the last of the country's debt to the IMF a month or two back

3) They made a truce with the PKK guys to bring some nasty fighting to an end.

In light of these three things (which I think are big successes each in their own right) and the fact that Erdogan doesn't have a history of butchering and torturing his opponents like say Assad and Mubarak (as far as I am aware), I am struggling to understand what the big deal is here and why so many people are out on the streets? Of course, I don't live in Turkey so I don't know all the details, but on the face of it, he seems to be doing ok.

And just to comment on a wider issue, I am beginning to wonder whether secularists in Muslim countries actually understand what democracy is. Both in Turkey and earlier in Egypt (against Mursi) I didn't really understand why instead of going around the streets behaving like hooligans they didn't organise themselves to vote their own people in. Mursi won a couple of elections, and if Quark is right in that Erdogan received 50% of the vote, it seems to point to the fact that their opponents are just sore losers.

Wollishofener what do you think?
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Old 02.06.2013, 06:18
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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In light of these three things (which I think are big successes each in their own right) and the fact that Erdogan doesn't have a history of butchering and torturing his opponents like say Assad and Mubarak (as far as I am aware), I am struggling to understand what the big deal is here and why so many people are out on the streets? Of course, I don't live in Turkey so I don't know all the details, but on the face of it, he seems to be doing ok.
In short is Erdogan a VERY conservative leader in several aspects:
1. he is very religious and tries to make Turkey a more Islamic state. Sounds probably strange to many Europeans as it was an Islamic state in our minds all the time but the founders of Turkey were very modern and oriented themselves on the west when they strictly separated religion from the state. Erdogan step by step tries to remove this - he limits alcohol, he tried to change the constitution to introduce headscarves at universities and so on. This pisses off the more educated and urban population.

2. he is a very authoritarian politician. He does not ask, he decides. Since he happens to be very smart and knowledgeable in economics did this make him exceptionally successful in economic terms... but unpopular with all the people who were negatively affected by his decisions and got the feeling that they were not asked and included in the decision making in a way they should in a democracy. Erdogan limits his view on democracy to a general election every few years and seems to believe he can rule like a king in between.

All in all is Turkey moving from a very modern society to a more backwards 3rd world approach of government - step by step. This alienates more and more young Turks despite all the economic successes.
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Old 02.06.2013, 09:17
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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In short is Erdogan a VERY conservative leader in several aspects:
1. he is very religious and tries to make Turkey a more Islamic state. Sounds probably strange to many Europeans as it was an Islamic state in our minds all the time but the founders of Turkey were very modern and oriented themselves on the west when they strictly separated religion from the state. Erdogan step by step tries to remove this - he limits alcohol, he tried to change the constitution to introduce headscarves at universities and so on. This pisses off the more educated and urban population.

2. he is a very authoritarian politician. He does not ask, he decides. Since he happens to be very smart and knowledgeable in economics did this make him exceptionally successful in economic terms... but unpopular with all the people who were negatively affected by his decisions and got the feeling that they were not asked and included in the decision making in a way they should in a democracy. Erdogan limits his view on democracy to a general election every few years and seems to believe he can rule like a king in between.

All in all is Turkey moving from a very modern society to a more backwards 3rd world approach of government - step by step. This alienates more and more young Turks despite all the economic successes.
Beautifully explained.
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Old 02.06.2013, 10:50
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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In short is Erdogan a VERY conservative leader in several aspects:
1. he is very religious and tries to make Turkey a more Islamic state. Sounds probably strange to many Europeans as it was an Islamic state in our minds all the time but the founders of Turkey were very modern and oriented themselves on the west when they strictly separated religion from the state. Erdogan step by step tries to remove this - he limits alcohol, he tried to change the constitution to introduce headscarves at universities and so on. This pisses off the more educated and urban population.
I am pretty sure that he isn't "introducing" headscarves into University as in forcing female students to wear them, but only allowing them to be worn. If memory serves me right, it was previous governments that banned headscarves from being worn to University... and the idea that a person gets banned from Uni because they choose to wear or not wear a scarf on their head seems unacceptable to me.
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Old 02.06.2013, 11:02
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Re: Turkish Spring?

Turkey is very interesting / it has a growth of 7 to 10% per year and it is becoming a regional superpower for this important part of the world - the Middle East and Central Asia

I think people are expecting more from their government as they see their standard of living increase.
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Old 02.06.2013, 11:10
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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I am pretty sure that he isn't "introducing" headscarves into University as in forcing female students to wear them, but only allowing them to be worn. If memory serves me right, it was previous governments that banned headscarves from being worn to University... and the idea that a person gets banned from Uni because they choose to wear or not wear a scarf on their head seems unacceptable to me.
Attaturk the father of modern Turkey prohibited the headscarf and the fez. He tried to secularize Turkey and make it a modern nation. After the fall of the Ottoman empire, the Turks were floundering and the future of the nation was not clear. Attaturk put back on a path to Western integration and he hoped, greatness.
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Old 02.06.2013, 11:11
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Re: Turkish Spring?

Civil rights are quite reduced the last few years in Turkey. Many journalists have been arrested and accused of trying to lead a revolt. Erdogan now intends to set up rules which will strengthen the power of the president to a level of a dictator. And of course he intends to be elected for president.
Turkey is a beautiful country with beautiful people, and I wish they will know better days.
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Old 02.06.2013, 11:17
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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I am pretty sure that he isn't "introducing" headscarves into University as in forcing female students to wear them, but only allowing them to be worn. If memory serves me right, it was previous governments that banned headscarves from being worn to University... and the idea that a person gets banned from Uni because they choose to wear or not wear a scarf on their head seems unacceptable to me.
Religion is a personal matter and doesn't belong in governmental institutions. It started with this and now with the interdiction to show affection in public. What is next? I can't wear my sleeveless summer dresses anymore?

There ain't free of speech in the country and many are being put in jail for expressing opinions. Informations is under government control where a channel can be put down if a topic or opinions are "disturbing".
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Old 02.06.2013, 11:26
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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Civil rights are quite reduced the last few years in Turkey. Many journalists have been arrested and accused of trying to lead a revolt. Erdogan now intends to set up rules which will strengthen the power of the president to a leveli of a dictator. And of course he intends to be elected for president.
Turkey is a beautiful country with beautiful people, and I wish they will know better days.
The last few governments in Turkey had to be very careful because if they did something to displease the military, there was a military coup. Erdogan has tried to make the military impotent in political matters, but this thing about civil rights
was certainly not started by him
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Old 02.06.2013, 11:44
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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The last few governments in Turkey had to be very careful because if they did something to displease the military, there was a military coup. Erdogan has tried to make the military impotent in political matters, but this thing about civil rights
was certainly not started by him
Each time the military was involved, it was to bring back the government on track. The military is there to protect the country to fall into Islamist hands and had been doing a great job until now.

They have nothing in common of what has been done in other countries under militarism.
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Old 02.06.2013, 11:48
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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Each time the military was involved, it was to bring back the government on track. The military is there to protect the country to fall into Islamist hands and had been doing a great job until now.

They have nothing in common of what has been done in other countries under militarism.
the Turkish mlitary likes right wing authoritarian policies as do militaries in all countries of the world. There wasn't much movement towards Islamism in previous governments as it was such a taboo, but they made sure that their right wing agenda was adhered to

you must be reading the military newspapers

here's a good discussion on the subject

http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2013/6/2/32740/36360
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Old 02.06.2013, 11:50
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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The last few governments in Turkey had to be very careful because if they did something to displease the military, there was a military coup. Erdogan has tried to make the military impotent in political matters, but this thing about civil rights
was certainly not started by him
That's completely unrelated. The point is that he, according to the constitution, cannot run as prime minister again. So he is currently trying to "do a Putin": You spend your last year as prime minister with restructuring the way the legislative works. Your main focus is on weakening your own prime minister role and strengthening the position of the president. Everyone who dares to complain gets brushed away with "that's how the US is doing it and they are doing well, no?".

Then you run for the presidency.
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Old 02.06.2013, 11:50
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Re: Turkish Spring?

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the Turkish mlitary likes right wing authoritarian policies as do militaries in all countries of the world. There wasn't much movement towards Islamism in previous governments as it was such a taboo, but they made sure that their right wing agenda was adhered to

you must be reading the military newspapers

here's a good discussion on the subject

http://www.eurotrib.com/story/2013/6/2/32740/36360
There is nothing better than seeing things from the inside. Have you been in Turkey? I mean living there?
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Old 02.06.2013, 11:58
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Re: Turkish Spring?

From your own link:


From the Chief Editor of Foreign News Service at Hürriyet:

The Istanbulian: 6 Reasons Why Turkey Is Not A Model Anymore
Turkish government restricted alcohol sales this week.

The Istanbulian: 6 Reasons Why Turkey Is Not A Model Anymore
The Ministry of Interior has just announced plans to establish a new security force with their own uniforms who can be armed like police. Critics called them "regime guards."

The Istanbulian: 6 Reasons Why Turkey Is Not A Model Anymore
Lately, the government announced that they would build a shopping mall at a park near Taksim Square, aka Istanbul's Tahrir, as well as a mosque. Neither buildings are needed in the area. When locals tried to stop the bulldozers before they removed 75-year-old trees today, police used tear gas, again. Only during the May Day demonstrations, Istanbul police deparment admitted that they used 14 tonnes of water with CS gas.

The Istanbulian: 6 Reasons Why Turkey Is Not A Model Anymore
Turkish TV serials, for instance, had a huge appeal in the Arab world, inspiring millions of people.
BAD EXAMPLE 4: Erdogan declared war on these serials, because they were not portraying a pious lifestyle. He just couldn't comprehend that these serials are appealing to today's Arabs, only because they prove that a modern, secular lifestyle is possible for Muslims.

The Istanbulian: 6 Reasons Why Turkey Is Not A Model Anymore
After Ankara subway officials made an announcement asking passengers "to act in accordance with moral rules" following security cameras spotted a couple kissing, scores of people organized a "kiss protest" in the same station. Then, about 20 Islamists chanting "Allah Akhbar" attacked them with knives, stabbing one kisser.

The Istanbulian: 6 Reasons Why Turkey Is Not A Model Anymore
The AKP foreign policy is great on the PR front, but terrible on the ground. First of all, it's full of inconsistencies.
So different grievances finding a common outlet?
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