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  #41  
Old 23.07.2013, 12:32
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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You can favour it all you like. But you cant dismiss and insult an entire people because they follow a different system.
You can go on and on about "dismiss and insult" and a "billion people", but all that is being pointed out in this thread is that despite the western facade, the fact is that Dubai is totalitarian and follows a system of law based on theology, which results in rape victims being handed longer sentences than the alleged attacker.

Other than you dismissing and insulting the other posters on the thread, who else was dismissed and insulted?
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  #42  
Old 23.07.2013, 12:42
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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So are you claiming that you have to spend many years studying something before you can criticise it?

Something as compex as an entire legal system? Yes, you need a fairly good understanding of it. Thats why we have expensive lawyers.

I doubt many people on this forum have spent many years studing US and Florida law, so that would exclude any discussion of or opinions on the Trayvon Martin case?

Discussion of opinions? no. Downright dismissal? yes. Saying as a fact that the jury was wrong? yes.

I doubt that many people have spent years studing the purchasing mechanisms for brown sugar. So beware anybody who tells you where you can get it. More likely than not he's an uninformed lying prat. Even the store manager is a lying prat.

yes, because buying brown sugar is exactly the same as a complex intricate system of law.

In fact if you haven't spent years stuying computer science you shouldn't have a computer and hence shouldn't be on this forum in the first place.

You shouldnt claim to know the ins and outs of how computers work, though.

To work around this problem, many hundereds of years ago, philosophers introduced something called empiricism. Empiricism means you don't have to fully understand the theory of something (as everything is interconnected anyway and ultimately without empiricism you cannot understand anything without studying the entire universe first). But instead you judge something by what it does. So you place more trust in the evidence than you place in the theory. You tell an apple tree from an orange tree by looking its fruits rather than its roots.

And in the above case, a woman was punished for being a victim. Do you have to spend years studying islamic law to see that that is wrong, or can you use your good judgement and accept it is wrong?
No. But you do have to have some understanding of sharia law, to see that sharia law wasnt the law that was applied. It was a flawed interpretation of it. Just like you need to know what an apple and an orange look and feel like, to recognise that the orange is not just an orange coloured apple.
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  #43  
Old 23.07.2013, 12:49
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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No. But you do have to have some understanding of sharia law, to see that sharia law wasnt the law that was applied. It was a flawed interpretation of it. Just like you need to know what an apple and an orange look and feel like, to recognise that the orange is not just an orange coloured apple.
Where exactly is our line of reasoning heading?

First you jump to the defense of a country and legal system that seeks to punish a victim.

Then you say, you cannot criticize that decision without first spending years studying that law system.

And now you are saying it was a flawed interpretation.

Therefore you admit to defending a flawed interpretation?
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  #44  
Old 23.07.2013, 12:51
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

So, in the end, what western women need to know before embarking on a trip to the Emirates, is that they need to avoid being raped!

What un-married couples need to know, also, is that it is illegal to walk hand-in-hand with your partner in public - you can be arrested. Same goes for sharing a double room in hotel.

Women need also to be absolutely sure they are NOT pregnant if they intend to drive a car. In the event of a motor accident and she loses the foetus she will be arrested for murder.

Arab prisons do not provide food. Family members/friends bring food to feed inmates.
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  #45  
Old 23.07.2013, 13:08
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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You can favour it all you like. But you cant dismiss and insult an entire people because they follow a different system.
Why not?

And how exactly have an entire people been dismissed or insulted?
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  #46  
Old 23.07.2013, 14:05
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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Where exactly is our line of reasoning heading?

First you jump to the defense of a country and legal system that seeks to punish a victim.

Then you say, you cannot criticize that decision without first spending years studying that law system.

And now you are saying it was a flawed interpretation.

Therefore you admit to defending a flawed interpretation?

-I jump to the defense of a people being insulted because of a system of law they follow.

-I never said you cant criticise the decision. Stop making things up. I myself have criticised it. I said there is a historical reason why that decision was made (not that i support it).

-Ive always maintained it is a flawed interpretation, in my opinion.

-Lastly, i said you cannot describe a system as stringently as richdog has, without at least trying to understand it in some depth first.
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  #47  
Old 23.07.2013, 14:06
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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Why not?

And how exactly have an entire people been dismissed or insulted?

Read the first page.
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  #48  
Old 23.07.2013, 14:06
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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Why do people feel comfortable making those claims though?

Their laws and customs are different, and god knows i dont agree with all of them. But why do people feel that western laws are better, simply because they are used to western law?
I'm just dying to find out how would an Emirati male act about a (hypothetical) similar adultery law had he been butt-raped and thrown to jail in Norway.
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  #49  
Old 23.07.2013, 14:12
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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So, in the end, what western women need to know before embarking on a trip to the Emirates, is that they need to avoid being raped! Is it not something they should avoid risking elsewhere too? Why pretend it doesnt happen in western countries?

What un-married couples need to know, also, is that they must follow the laws and customs, no matter how arcane they seem.

Women need also to be absolutely sure they are NOT pregnant if they intend to drive a car. In the event of a motor accident and she loses the foetus she will be arrested for murder.

I assume you can back this up with fact?

Arab prisons do not provide food. Family members/friends bring food to feed inmates.

Not quite true, they do get some food.
The penal system dictates that human rights are forfeit when you commit a crime. You may not agree with it (and that your right) but thats their law.
see additions above.
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  #50  
Old 23.07.2013, 14:12
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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I'm just dying to find out how would an Emirati male act about a (hypothetical) similar adultery law had he been butt-raped and thrown to jail in Norway.

To be honest, their society has put such a shame on it, they'd probably never admit it.
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  #51  
Old 23.07.2013, 14:46
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

Meanwhile, it seems that perhaps the facts are not quite what they seem:

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/dubai...ng-510416.html

In short, they got drunk, had sex, she claimed rape, he says consensual, she dropped the rape claim, and thus got charged with perjury, both got charged with being drunk and having unmarried sex.

Interesting.

Tom
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  #52  
Old 23.07.2013, 14:51
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

Thanks Tom.

As always, having all the facts before making a judgement is crucial.
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  #53  
Old 23.07.2013, 15:01
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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Meanwhile, it seems that perhaps the facts are not quite what they seem:

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/dubai...ng-510416.html

In short, they got drunk, had sex, she claimed rape, he says consensual, she dropped the rape claim, and thus got charged with perjury, both got charged with being drunk and having unmarried sex.

Interesting.

Tom
The other bit of the story is that a month after the alleged incident her employers terminated her contract for gross misconduct. This caused an uproar in Norway where they felt the company should have stood by her no matter what. Never the less it would be interesting to know the exact grounds for her dismissal.
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  #54  
Old 23.07.2013, 15:02
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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Read the first page.
Done that. Still non-the-wiser. And you haven't explained why dismissing or insulting an entire people on the basis of their terrible legal code is wrong.
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Old 23.07.2013, 15:09
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013...side-marriage/


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...l-licence.html
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  #56  
Old 23.07.2013, 15:12
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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The other bit of the story is that a month after the alleged incident her employers terminated her contract for gross misconduct. This caused an uproar in Norway where they felt the company should have stood by her no matter what. Never the less it would be interesting to know the exact grounds for her dismissal.
From the article, it seems that it was because she behaved irresponsibly and the police got involved (presumably embarassing the company).

Again, not saying she was right or wrong.
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Old 23.07.2013, 15:15
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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Done that. Still non-the-wiser. And you haven't explained why dismissing or insulting an entire people on the basis of their terrible legal code is wrong.
A legal code is something the people have to live with. Its not something most Emiratis have a large amount of control over. It'd be akin to insulting your swiss neighbours because you have to use canton-approved bin bags (obviously the magnitudes are different, but the sequence isnt that different).

It fine to disagree, and debate, but its not right to insult them or assume moral superiority.
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  #58  
Old 23.07.2013, 15:17
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape


The Daily Mail and the Blaze? Those two bastions of honest, thorough, unsensationalised journalism?

Again, and for the umpteenth time, im not denying their legal code is flawed, so your effort was wasted. (seriously) Thanks for taking the time to find some sources though (even if it is the Daily Heil)
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Old 23.07.2013, 15:40
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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Meanwhile, it seems that perhaps the facts are not quite what they seem:

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/dubai...ng-510416.html

In short, they got drunk, had sex, she claimed rape, he says consensual, she dropped the rape claim, and thus got charged with perjury, both got charged with being drunk and having unmarried sex.

Interesting.

Tom
Nope, that's again just half the story = the girl went to the cops because she expected them to help her. Some days later she is released on parole and finally gets that she is the one who will get charged. Her company lawyers advise her to drop all claims and she believes them that she could at least get out of her own trial. However does the public persecutor decide the opposite and charges her now with adultery, drinking AND perjury.

P.S: An Arab newspaper might not be the most unbiased source...
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  #60  
Old 23.07.2013, 15:47
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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Nope, that's again just half the story = the girl went to the cops because she expected them to help her. Some days later she is released on parole and finally gets that she is the one who will get charged. Her company lawyers advise her to drop all claims and she believes them that she could at least get out of her own trial. However does the public persecutor decide the opposite and charges her now with adultery, drinking AND perjury.

P.S: An Arab newspaper might not be the most unbiased source...
We're rapidly concluding that none of the news sources can be trusted, there is too much scope for bias depending on whether you're pro or anti the Middle East.
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