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  #81  
Old 24.07.2013, 10:53
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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So, i take it we're going to let this thread die off now?
Well, to be honest, you are not actually talking about what the OP(ME) started with, from the beginning.

Your reaction was, not that this was a mess and her human rights were being affected because she was a woman, but rather, I bet if this happened in Switzerland people would tell you to bugger off with the article.

Which, we cannot ever know what would happen, because, even though some of the laws here can be quite liberal, and some constricting, there isn't anything apparent today, that says if you claim to be a victim of a crime, definite punishment will be coming your way if are a member of the wrong sex.
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Old 24.07.2013, 11:03
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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That is not true!

According to Islam, if a woman had sex with someone other than her husband, 4 witness had to tell that this is happened in order that she gets punished for that.

This other thing written above is not correct.
Thanks for clearing that up.
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  #83  
Old 24.07.2013, 11:03
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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Well, to be honest, you are not actually talking about what the OP(ME) started with, from the beginning.

Your reaction was, not that this was a mess and her human rights were being affected because she was a woman, but rather, I bet if this happened in Switzerland people would tell you to bugger off with the article.

Which, we cannot ever know what would happen, because, even though some of the laws here can be quite liberal, and some constricting, there isn't anything apparent today, that says if you claim to be a victim of a crime, definite punishment will be coming your way if are a member of the wrong sex.
She wasnt punished because she was the wrong sex. She was punished because she admitted breaking 3 laws.

If, in the process of a burglary, your victims illegal dog was to injure you, if you tell the police then your victim will get charged for the illegal dog, but you will get charged for burglary. If you then admit that you lied in court about the dog biting you, you will also get charged with Perjury. This is true in Switzerland, and the UK.

Her victim status did not mean she was forgiven for breaking those laws. You still havent clarified why you find that so abhorrent. Her human rights werent disturbed, the rape case wasnt dismissed because she was a woman (or because of the lack of 4 witnesses, which apparently isnt even the case)...the rape case was dismissed because she withdrew the accusation (on bad advice). In doing so, she incriminated herself wrt breaking two other laws.
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Old 24.07.2013, 11:05
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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That is not true!

According to Islam, if a woman had sex with someone other than her husband, 4 witness had to tell that this is happened in order that she gets punished for that.

This other thing written above is not correct.

Misr, perhaps you can clear something up...can forensic/scientific evidence or CCTV be used in a rape case?
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  #85  
Old 24.07.2013, 11:09
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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I'm just dying to find out how would an Emirati male act about a (hypothetical) similar adultery law had he been butt-raped and thrown to jail in Norway.
what does the Sharia have to say about butt rape? and how many witnesses are required to prove it happened?
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Old 24.07.2013, 11:12
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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what does the Sharia have to say about butt rape? and how many witnesses are required to prove it happened?
Misr, i think, knows more about sharia law in the case of this type of rape.


What i can say is that the death penalty is allowed for cases of proven rape. However, it is the victims choice...if she or he asks that the criminal is pardoned, then the criminal can be pardoned. If they ask that the punishment is prison for life (actual life, not this 15-year nonsense) then that is the punishment given.

PS: I'd like to go on record to say that my opinion on the historical basis for the 4-man rule appears to be incorrect, based on what Misr says. The 4-man rule may be required to prove that adultery (ie, one spouse cheating on another) occured, not rape. In such a case, if 4 witnesses cant be brought, then the charges against the wife would be dropped. If this is true then the OPs comments about 4 witnesses being required for rape are grossly inaccurate and inflammatory. OP, do yu accept this?

Misr may be able to shed light on the evidence required for Rape.
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  #87  
Old 24.07.2013, 11:41
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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see additions above.
Well, seeing as how you enjoyed adding the additions to my post, I deem you`re awaiting my comments?

The arcane laws previously upheld in civilized countries deemed a raped woman was guilty - and she was virtually lambasted and embarassed in court - accused of being in the "wrong" place, wearing "provocative" clothing, her past was brought into public, her personal lifestyle, etc etc.

Since a particular survivor of a particularly horrific attack (in SA) survived her ordeal, (after being raped her throat was cut and she was disembowled) she embarked on speaking tours to enlighten and encourage women to speak out and not consider themselves victims, but rather survivors of attacks by persons physically stronger then themselves - that it is not a "sexual" attack, rather an attack of pure violence against a weaker person. (On par with an adult attacking a defenceless child).

So, your comment about western women avoiding rape in western countries is inane. There are always some men who rape women - in any country. The personal violence of rape would be on par with yourself having some strange man ejaculating in your mouth. Would you not feel violated? and disgusted? Would the experience be something you could easily get over? That is the same as a woman being raped.

If you care to go thru the archives of the Emirate newspapers you will find reports of pregant women being gaoled for losing their babies in car accidents. It happened when I was there. And it has happened again.

I do believe it has reached the stage, now, of even being a passenger in a car - unless on way to hospital for birth, it is an offence to subject the foetus/baby to possible death should the mother be involved in a car accident. This is only hearsay, but still draconian.

As for the food in gaol. I take your word that "some" food is provided by the authorities. I guess it would be intollerable for the inmates to actually starve to death should they have no family or friends.

It is still a savage country. There`s an old saying attributed to an ancient North American Chief in the 13/1600`s "You can judge a people by how they treat their animals" (note - not their people!)

And if that is any judgement to go by - the Emirates is a savage land - despite it`s glitz and "glamour" built in concrete.
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  #88  
Old 24.07.2013, 12:08
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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Well, seeing as how you enjoyed adding the additions to my post, I deem you`re awaiting my comments?

The arcane laws previously upheld in civilized countries deemed a raped woman was guilty - and she was virtually lambasted and embarassed in court - accused of being in the "wrong" place, wearing "provocative" clothing, her past was brought into public, her personal lifestyle, etc etc.

Lets not pretend this does not still happen in western nations...It is a belief that will take a long time for people to move away from. In an ideal world, the victims past, clothing, lifestyle etc wouldnt be considered. But we do not live in a perfect world. Not in Dubai, the UK, Switzerland or anywhere else.

Since a particular survivor of a particularly horrific attack (in SA) survived her ordeal, (after being raped her throat was cut and she was disembowled) she embarked on speaking tours to enlighten and encourage women to speak out and not consider themselves victims, but rather survivors of attacks by persons physically stronger then themselves - that it is not a "sexual" attack, rather an attack of pure violence against a weaker person. (On par with an adult attacking a defenceless child).

-Im not denying this happened, but please provide a source.
-Can you clarify what SA is? There is more then one country with those intials. Considering down below you bring North America into it, i wont assume you're geographical discipline is based on dubai alone.

So, your comment about western women avoiding rape in western countries is inane. There are always some men who rape women - in any country. The personal violence of rape would be on par with yourself having some strange man ejaculating in your mouth. Would you not feel violated? and disgusted? Would the experience be something you could easily get over? That is the same as a woman being raped.

-You misinterpret. My point was that no one, male or female, should take unecassary risks. In the UK, i would not advise a woman to go down a dark alley with someone she doesnt know intimately. In Dubai, i would recommend that an unmarried woman does not go into a hotel room with another man. This isnt sexist, its pragmatic.
-so...you're saying rape is bad? Thanks, i already knew that. I never denied it, did i? Please do not insinuate that that was my point.

If you care to go thru the archives of the Emirate newspapers you will find reports of pregant women being gaoled for losing their babies in car accidents. It happened when I was there. And it has happened again.

-You are using it to support your argument; the onus is on you to provide the evidence backing your claim. Dont ask me to prove your claims for you.

I do believe it has reached the stage, now, of even being a passenger in a car - unless on way to hospital for birth, it is an offence to subject the foetus/baby to possible death should the mother be involved in a car accident. This is only hearsay, but still draconian.

-There are enough incorrect assumptions being made without bringing hearsay into this discussion. lets stick to things we know.


As for the food in gaol. I take your word that "some" food is provided by the authorities. I guess it would be intollerable for the inmates to actually starve to death should they have no family or friends.

It is still a savage country. There`s an old saying attributed to an ancient North American Chief in the 13/1600`s "You can judge a people by how they treat their animals" (note - not their people!)

-And how did the buffalo, that this indian chiefs people depended on for survival, come to almost extinction? They were hunted and killed in the most disrespectful manner (sometimes an entire buffalo killed only for its tounge, the remainder being left to rot) by white american hunters. Would it thus be fair to say that North America is also a land of savages? Of course not. North America has been populated for hundreds of years, and its laws and customs have developed over time. 100 years ago, Dubai was a spit of desert. 500 years from now, its laws will be very different. Perspective.

And if that is any judgement to go by - the Emirates is a savage land - despite it`s glitz and "glamour" built in concrete.

A judgement it may be, but it would be an ill-informed and flawed judgement - plenty of people would say the opposite, especially the expats who earn 4 times as much, doing half as much work, and who pay no tax..

See my additions.

Last edited by J2488; 24.07.2013 at 12:27.
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  #89  
Old 24.07.2013, 12:39
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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That is not true!

According to Islam, if a woman had sex with someone other than her husband, 4 witness had to tell that this is happened in order that she gets punished for that.

This other thing written above is not correct.
Really?

You will find tons of websites about it - both pro and anti Islam. For the sake of the argument do I choose a Muslim perspective:

http://www.islamhelpline.net/node/905

"If a woman claims that she has been raped, she does not have to bring any witnesses to prove her claim; her word will be taken as truth without the need of any witnesses whatsoever. And because she claimed she was raped, she will be treated honorably and free of any wrong doing whatsoever. There is absolutely no question of any punishment for her, because she was the innocent party and a victim of the heinous crime committed against her.


But if the woman who is raped accuses that so and so specific person or people raped her, then there are only two ways an Islamic Court can convict the accused rapist/s:
The accused rapist confesses to his heinous crime; or
she produces four witnesses to justify her claim that so and so person raped her.

If the accused rapist does not confess, and the woman is unable to produce the four witnesses; then the Court can levy upon her the case of ‘kazaf’ or falsely accusing somebody.


Under no circumstances can a woman who claims she was raped be charged, accused, convicted, or punished for ‘zina’ (fornication or adultery) in an Islamic Court of Law. All she has to do is say that she was raped, and her word will be taken as the truth."

Looks like nobody told the judge about that last paragraph...
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  #90  
Old 24.07.2013, 12:46
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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Really?

You will find tons of websites about it - both pro and anti Islam. For the sake of the argument do I choose a Muslim perspective:

http://www.islamhelpline.net/node/905

"If a woman claims that she has been raped, she does not have to bring any witnesses to prove her claim; her word will be taken as truth without the need of any witnesses whatsoever. And because she claimed she was raped, she will be treated honorably and free of any wrong doing whatsoever. There is absolutely no question of any punishment for her, because she was the innocent party and a victim of the heinous crime committed against her.


But if the woman who is raped accuses that so and so specific person or people raped her, then there are only two ways an Islamic Court can convict the accused rapist/s:
The accused rapist confesses to his heinous crime; or
she produces four witnesses to justify her claim that so and so person raped her.

If the accused rapist does not confess, and the woman is unable to produce the four witnesses; then the Court can levy upon her the case of ‘kazaf’ or falsely accusing somebody.


Under no circumstances can a woman who claims she was raped be charged, accused, convicted, or punished for ‘zina’ (fornication or adultery) in an Islamic Court of Law. All she has to do is say that she was raped, and her word will be taken as the truth."

Looks like nobody told the judge about that last paragraph...
What part of 'she withdrew her accusation' is it exactly that you have trouble acknowledging?

http://www.thenational.ae/news/uae-n...sex-case#page1

The last couple of paragraphs succintly describe the situation:

"If, indeed, Ms Dalelv did believe changing her story would end the matter, it was a catastrophic miscalculation, leaving her defenceless for the eventual court hearing last week in which she was given a year for consensual sex, a month for filing a false report and three months for illegally consuming alcohol - all crimes to which she had effectively admitted.

The pardon means Ms Dalelv will no longer have to wait for her appeal in September to hope for freedom.

But it also means that what happened in that hotel room in March will remain a subject for conjecture and speculation, rather than a simple case of laws that were broken."
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Old 24.07.2013, 12:53
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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What part of 'she withdrew her accusation' is it exactly that you have trouble with?
The part where all parties involved agree that she did so only after talking to her lawyer. She made the decision to do so based on the recommendations of her lawyer - being misguided that if she does she could walk away freely and if she does not she would end up in jail. After being arrested and locked up for several days.

Just for a second try to imagine that her claims are correct - that she really is a rape victim. Then she gets thrown into jail and questioned for hours. Her lawyer paid by the employer tells her "just say it did not happen and I'll get you out of here"... what would you do?

A long story short - there was a young woman probably raped but clearly treated extremely unfairly in the legal system. Which is not a real surprise to anyone who knows how much a woman's word is worth - especially if the alleged rapist happens to have the right religion and she does not.
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  #92  
Old 24.07.2013, 12:54
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

First let me clarify what does Marriage mean in Islam, it means two conditions are satisfied:

1) Acceptance, which means that the woman tells on her own will that she accepts the man as a husband, then he replied back that he also accepts.
2) Making it famous, which means telling at least two people that the couple are married.

If a married woman, had sex on her own will with another man other than her husband, here is the verses of the Qur’an which mention the production of four witnesses for this specific case: The adulterer and the adulteress — flog each one of them with a hundred stripes…
-(An-Nur 24:3)

Here above -(An-Nur 24:3) it mentions the punishment of both parties

…And those who calumniate chaste woman but bring not four witnesses — flog them eighty stripes and do not admit their evidence ever after. -(An-Nur 24:5)

And here above, -(An-Nur 24:5) it mentions if any one said that this lady did such a sin without having 4 witness that this happened then he/she who said this without witness has to be punished, that limits rumers that may distroy family life without being based on a clue.

---------------------------------------------------------

Rape is interpretted as a crime in the category of hiraba (highway robbery, terrorism or promoting terror).

Hiraba does not require four witnesses to prove the offence; circumstantial evidence, medical data and expert testimony form the evidence used to prosecute such crimes, this is if the rapper did not confess his crime - Rapped woman should be treated with all respect, she is a victim and should be compansated to what happened to her.

Note: Men and boys can also suffer rape, at the hands of other men, and at the hands of women, same applies as mentioned.

Islam is very clear in its stance on torture (I mean crimes that cause instability in the society). It considers every single life sacred irrespective of gender, age or religion. (Quran - Sura: aya 6:151, 17.33 & 5.32 )

Furthermore, there are some 150 verses in the Quran that assert that life is not just physical but encompasses our mental, emotional and spiritual aspects as well, thereby implying that crimes such as rape should not be trivially taken as mere physical trauma.
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  #93  
Old 24.07.2013, 12:57
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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If a married woman, had sex on her own will with another man other than her husband, here is the verses of the Qur’an which mention the production of four witnesses for this specific case: The adulterer and the adulteress — flog each one of them with a hundred stripes…
-(An-Nur 24:3)
But that's not what happened, is it? What does the law say if a married man has sex with an unmarried woman other than his wife?
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Old 24.07.2013, 13:04
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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A long story short - there was a young woman probably raped but clearly treated extremely unfairly in the legal system. Which is not a real surprise to anyone who knows how much a woman's word is worth - especially if the alleged rapist happens to have the right religion and she does not.

Please allow me to clarify

Religion (Islam) doesn't prevent or help a rappist from not getting the punishment if proven to do this.

In Quraan it talked about the rappist without mentioning that this religion works and the other doesn't work.

Hereunder it did not mention any religion when it was talking about the punishment.

الزَّانِيَةُ وَالزَّانِي فَاجْلِدُوا كُلَّ وَاحِدٍ مِنْهُمَا مِائَةَ جَلْدَةٍ ۖ وَلَا تَأْخُذْكُمْ بِهِمَا رَأْفَةٌ فِي دِينِ اللَّهِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۖ وَلْيَشْهَدْ عَذَابَهُمَا طَائِفَةٌ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ
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Old 24.07.2013, 13:05
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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The part where all parties involved agree that she did so only after talking to her lawyer. She made the decision to do so based on the recommendations of her lawyer - being misguided that if she does she could walk away freely and if she does not she would end up in jail. After being arrested and locked up for several days.

Just for a second try to imagine that her claims are correct - that she really is a rape victim. Then she gets thrown into jail and questioned for hours. Her lawyer paid by the employer tells her "just say it did not happen and I'll get you out of here"... what would you do?

A long story short - there was a young woman probably raped but clearly treated extremely unfairly in the legal system. Which is not a real surprise to anyone who knows how much a woman's word is worth - especially if the alleged rapist happens to have the right religion and she does not.

On the contrary. She was treated failry, according to the laws of the land.

The fact that she was given bad advice did not and should not have any bearing on the fact that she admitted to the crimes she was charged for.

She now has grounds to take the employers lawyer to court, something i would completely support. But the fact remains, she (unwittingly) admitted to breaking the law, and she was punished for it.

And now you're suggesting that his religion was areason he got away with it. Where does it say he was muslim? What evidence do you have that this was taken into account? Reprehensible. .

I will BOLDthe next couple of sentences for effect:

-He never denied they had sex. He claimed it was consensual, and this was backed up by video evidence and later, her modified statement.

-She (upon poor advice) retracted her statement, thereby incriminating herself of breaking another two seperate laws, unrelated to the first law she broke. The judiciary were forced to charge her. To not do so would have been unfair.
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Old 24.07.2013, 13:12
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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But that's not what happened, is it? What does the law say if a married man has sex with an unmarried woman other than his wife?

This man will be considered adulterer in this case (if the woman accepted and not forced to do sex with him) and hence the punishment is what is mentioned here as well.

The adulterer and the adulteress — flog each one of them with a hundred stripes…
-(An-Nur 24:3)


Please note if the woman did not accept, and hence she is rapped - that for a married/widow/divorced rappist -- the punishment is to be sentenced to death.
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  #97  
Old 24.07.2013, 13:17
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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Please allow me to clarify

Religion (Islam) doesn't prevent or help a rappist from not getting the punishment if proven to do this.
Granted. But as far as I understand Islamic law are non-Mulims, like the girl, not even allowed to testify against Muslims. So it is not that her word counts less because she is a woman - it counts nothing at all.

"The testimony of a Zimmi is not accepted because Allah - may He be exalted - said: `God will not let the infidels (kafir) have an upper hand over the believers'."
http://www.answering-islam.de/NonMuslims/rights.htm
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Old 24.07.2013, 13:22
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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Granted. But as far as I understand Islamic law are non-Mulims, like the girl, not even allowed to testify against Muslims. So it is not that her word counts less because she is a woman - it counts nothing at all.

"The testimony of a Zimmi is not accepted because Allah - may He be exalted - said: `God will not let the infidels (kafir) have an upper hand over the believers'."
http://www.answering-islam.de/NonMuslims/rights.htm
An evangelical website is not the best place to go for understanding one of the most misunderstood concepts of another religion, is it?

In this case they have used one sentence which they claim is 'sharia'. Thats basically saying 'somebody once said'. They dont mention the author, time or context.

And you still havent shown any evidence this was taken into account. Moreover, If her word doesnt count at all, why was he arrested in the first place? surely if her word meant as little as you claim, he wouldnt have been arrested at all?
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Old 24.07.2013, 13:33
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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Granted. But as far as I understand Islamic law are non-Mulims, like the girl, not even allowed to testify against Muslims. So it is not that her word counts less because she is a woman - it counts nothing at all.

"The testimony of a Zimmi is not accepted because Allah - may He be exalted - said: `God will not let the infidels (kafir) have an upper hand over the believers'."
http://www.answering-islam.de/NonMuslims/rights.htm

I believe that this is true, but I think this is not applied in muslim countries laws nowadays.

I think Islam deals with non-muslims like how EU countries deal with non EU citizens, they are respected, well treated, integrated if they accept to get integrated but mostly not trusted, this is my personal opinion not based on any studies.

I had read the link you mentioned and saw a lot of things that could be seen as positive other than this selected post and this gave me the impression that you may have something against islam - where you have all the freedom and respect for that.

I hope it is fine for you that I will not reply to coming posts that give the same impressions especially that this info you posted is not related to the discussion or my previous post.

If a muslim did a rape crime, he is considered a criminal not a witness and will be punished regardless of his religion.
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Old 24.07.2013, 13:59
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Re: Norweigan Woman Freed on her Conviction for reporting Rape

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What does the law say if a married man has sex with an unmarried woman other than his wife?
and what if a man has sex with a married woman who is married to someone else? And, by the way, didn't I read somewhere that Dubai is full of Russian hookers?
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