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  #41  
Old 06.11.2013, 12:05
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Re: India's mission to Mars

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What future, I don't see how spending this kind of money on this research is going to help India?

Lets face it, India are not going to discover anything in space before the western world.
Besides water on the moon?

A little biased, aren`t we?
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Old 06.11.2013, 12:22
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Re: India's mission to Mars

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Besides water on the moon?

A little biased, aren`t we?
Nope, by my reckoning his statement stands.

"On the 25 September 2009, ISRO announced that the MIP had discovered water on the moon just before impact.[1] This announcement was made after the discovery of water was announced on September 24, 2009 by Science magazine by the NASA payload Moon Mineralogy Mapper carried on board Chandrayaan-1.[18] MIP discovered water on moon before NASA's Moon Mineralogy Mapper. The announcement of this discovery was not made until NASA confirmed it.[2][19]"
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  #43  
Old 06.11.2013, 12:32
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Re: India's mission to Mars

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Nope, by my reckoning his statement stands.

"On the 25 September 2009, ISRO announced that the MIP had discovered water on the moon just before impact.[1] This announcement was made after the discovery of water was announced on September 24, 2009 by Science magazine by the NASA payload Moon Mineralogy Mapper carried on board Chandrayaan-1.[18] MIP discovered water on moon before NASA's Moon Mineralogy Mapper. The announcement of this discovery was not made until NASA confirmed it.[2][19]"
Read it again, and this time the whole article, not just the sentence that fulfills your confirmation bias. The NASA instrument on board the Indian moon mission was used to confirm the initial discovery by the Indian impactor probe.

Pretty conservative of the Indians to report such a significant find, and admirable from the scientific point of view, by waiting until the discovery could be backed up.

BTW, the same amount of whining about how this money could have helped hundreds of millions of poor people is just a repetition of the story when the Indian moon probe was launched, and completely misses the larger socio-economic picture in India. 72 million USD is peanuts against the total social spending already happening in India.
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Old 06.11.2013, 12:47
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Re: India's mission to Mars

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Read it again, and this time the whole article, not just the sentence that fulfills your confirmation bias. The NASA instrument on board the Indian moon mission was used to confirm the initial discovery by the Indian impactor probe.

Pretty conservative of the Indians to report such a significant find, and admirable from the scientific point of view, by waiting until the discovery could be backed up.

BTW, the same amount of whining about how this money could have helped hundreds of millions of poor people is just a repetition of the story when the Indian moon probe was launched, and completely misses the larger socio-economic picture in India. 72 million USD is peanuts against the total social spending already happening in India.
Sorry dude, just using the link you posted. Anyhow, the fact remains India discovered diddly poo. Water was discovered by Nasa. India, along with a whole host of other nations had said it was very likely that water was present on the moon however the discovery and confirmation was made by Nasa.
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  #45  
Old 06.11.2013, 13:48
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Re: India's mission to Mars

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Sorry, but have you ever tried to do dozens of phone calls to "Africa" within a day ? Forget it now. Many people, even business, only can be reached by mobile phone, often via Paris or London. Africa in fact is NOT over-populated, it is UNDER-populated, so that the corporate world only slowly become ready to invest. As a Nigerian in-the-know back in the 1990iies told me, the TAKE-OFF of Nigeria and other parts of Africa will be in the 2020ies

BUT already now, things are improving, but not yet over the continent. THIS is why so many from there try to make into Europe
It may well be as you say. You obviously have experience. My knowledge stems purely from the Media which portrays African natives spending their lives in mud or dust but with a mobile phone clamped to their ears. It's probably safe to say that the Chinese will pull Africa out of its lethargy but will also turn the continent into one large farming unit.

But in my books India is not doing itself a favour by attaching itself to the universal need for prestige. As long as families live on pavements and sleep in cardboard boxes there are better things to be done with any surplus money. But why would any technological industry salesman suggest such a thing...
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Old 06.11.2013, 13:54
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Re: India's mission to Mars

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Can you explain what is 'anti India' about my post?

Do you believe India will discover something in space before the western world that has ploughed billions into for the past 100 years?
True, may be you are right, India is not as advanced as the Western World but the investment is worth the efforts and money.
Else it would be like depriving a poor child his education until he can afford to sort out his basic needs. "you think you can compete with the little brainy brats here who can afford to learn on ipads and iphones even before they learnt to use a pacifier"
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  #47  
Old 06.11.2013, 14:04
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Re: India's mission to Mars

Of course it's a good idea for the Indians to invest in their space programme.

Everyone knows that space technology gets applied to other areas back home:

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Old 06.11.2013, 14:20
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Re: India's mission to Mars

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Uk is still sending 250-300million per year and planned to do so for the next few years.
I have worked for a "Western" aid agency and most of this aid money that you refer to is tied aid. Tied in the sense that (i) consulting projects can only be bid on by nationals of the country that is providing the aid; and (ii) goods to be procured in capital investment projects must come from the nation that gives the aid and so on...

Given India's history with the UK, the aid funds that you mention don't seem to be enough.

72 million US$ seems to be such a small amount in comparison to the billions of dollars or euros that we hear about every day on the news given to prop up countries or lost by companies.
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  #49  
Old 06.11.2013, 14:28
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Re: India's mission to Mars

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There will always be poor people in India whilst the caste system remains.
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India is the biggest democracy in the world.
Criticism, praise...whenever it suits us.



Btw. Is India an independent country and could, maybe, decide how to spend a few bucks?
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  #50  
Old 06.11.2013, 14:42
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Re: India's mission to Mars

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Criticism, praise...whenever it suits us.



Btw. Is India an independent country and could, maybe, decide how to spend a few bucks?
It is deciding.

Or do you think they base their spending on a few off-the-cuff comments on EF?

And, one can criticise certain aspects of a country whilst praising others. People do it on this forum the whole time.
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Old 06.11.2013, 17:09
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Re: India's mission to Mars

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Hahahahaha Another Anti Indian I can just laugh on you Lets wait and watch
So you are calling him a racist - nice.
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  #52  
Old 06.11.2013, 17:17
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Re: India's mission to Mars

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It is deciding.

Or do you think they base their spending on a few off-the-cuff comments on EF?

And, one can criticise certain aspects of a country whilst praising others. People do it on this forum the whole time.
All right then, good that you sort that out.
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  #53  
Old 06.11.2013, 17:21
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Re: India's mission to Mars

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I have worked for a "Western" aid agency and most of this aid money that you refer to is tied aid. Tied in the sense that (i) consulting projects can only be bid on by nationals of the country that is providing the aid; and (ii) goods to be procured in capital investment projects must come from the nation that gives the aid and so on...

Given India's history with the UK, the aid funds that you mention don't seem to be enough.

72 million US$ seems to be such a small amount in comparison to the billions of dollars or euros that we hear about every day on the news given to prop up countries or lost by companies.
I can draw on over 50 years experience in aid projects so know how it works very well. I have however only come across very few projects that operate in the manner you describe. Who was the aid agency UNDB, WB, EU?

The tech specs for equipment are generic, they are not to stipulate point of origin or brand names.
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  #54  
Old 06.11.2013, 17:28
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Re: India's mission to Mars

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There will always be poor people in India whilst the caste system remains.

I was surprised how much credence is placed on it by Indians, even highly educated ones outside of India.

If India wants to improve its image in the world, perhaps it needs to do something about this rather than build space rockets.
Being an Indian, I contradict you. The caste system exists and does drive some decision making - mostly social - in India. Think of it as many religions.
I can't see how you can point to the caste system as the main cause of poverty! Today, there are rich and affluent people from all castes in India, even the so-called "lower castes", some even say they have more privileges.

Anyway, above comments are OT and need another thread. Back to the Mars mission.
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Old 06.11.2013, 18:27
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Re: India's mission to Mars

http://m.economictimes.com/news/poli...w/24959866.cms

What it basically says is, this mission cost about 1/10th of a comparable mission by NASA. For those crying over the colossal "loss" while millions are starving, those are two separate, independent issues. As has been said before, none of the 67 M USD was pilfered; had that money been ploughed into hunger alleviation, 90% of it would have been pilfered and most of it reached secret UBS/Credit Suisse accounts.

And for comparison, the Indian Mars mission cost was about 1/3 of the annual Indian firecrackers industry size (most of it burnt during Diwali), although hearteningly the latter reduced by 25% in big cities this year due to increasing awareness but that is OT.
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Old 06.11.2013, 18:38
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Re: India's mission to Mars

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And for comparison, the Indian Mars mission cost was about 1/3 of the annual Indian firecrackers industry size (most of it burnt during Diwali), although hearteningly the latter reduced by 25% in big cities this year due to increasing awareness but that is OT.
Couldn't some of those fireworks be diverted to help with the practicalities of sending this probe to Mars?

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Old 06.11.2013, 18:40
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Re: India's mission to Mars

So caste system is being discussed in relation to Indian space programme? Why does racism not get discussed in relation to US space programme I do feel there is latent "something" that comes out every time a poor country dares to step on rich countries shoes.

As far as government aid to any third world country is concerned, you really think it comes from the goodness of heart and without any strings attached? Politics much?

Cast system is disgusting and should not have any place in modern society. In a way it is similar to how educated people in the west still cling on to outmoded concepts like religion, God and power of prayer.
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Old 06.11.2013, 18:44
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Re: India's mission to Mars

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Couldn't some of those fireworks be diverted to help with the practicalities of sending this probe to Mars?
I think you are confusing Indian space agency with N.Korean/Iranian one
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  #59  
Old 06.11.2013, 19:52
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Re: India's mission to Mars

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Being an Indian, I contradict you. The caste system exists and does drive some decision making - mostly social - in India. Think of it as many religions.
I can't see how you can point to the caste system as the main cause of poverty! Today, there are rich and affluent people from all castes in India, even the so-called "lower castes", some even say they have more privileges.
.
Perhaps if I said one of the main causes of poverty.

Of course the caste system is not what it was and there are lower caste members in the higher echelons of society but for a percentage of the population, they are stuck in their caste rut.

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When examining the caste systemís effects in India, Nepal and Sri Lanka, there are
certain patterns that exist and can be linked to poverty. In each nation, the people in lower
castes are assigned menial jobs. This helps in explaining why there is so much poverty.
These lower caste members are not allowed to move up the career ladder and instead
remain poor. There also are additional country-specific restrictions with various degrees
that further the exclusion-poverty cycle in these three countries.
From here.

Not probably the best thing to link to but there you go.

or

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2010 is the first year that India's census will have no questions on which caste one belongs to. However, some aspects of the caste system still reside in the rural areas. People of a lower caste still will not receive any services from government if the officials are from a higher caste. The only way to get help is through bribes.
from here

My wife knew one Indian science PhD student in the U.K. who wanted a new group leader as the renowned professor she had been given was of a lower caste than her.
Obviously this has no connection with poverty but does demonstrate that attitudes can be, for even very educated people, unchanged.
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Old 06.11.2013, 20:05
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Re: India's mission to Mars

Only one way to get rid of the caste system, education, education, education, give five, ten generations of education and it will be history, don't worry.
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