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  #101  
Old 07.11.2013, 14:00
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Re: India's mission to Mars

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I dont agree or subscribe to the caste system.

While the origins were well founded (to each on his/her own merit) it has become a tool for discrimination, exploitation and segregation. But in a funny way, with the rise of Identity Politics, people are more aware of their castes now than ever before.

However I dont see the relevance of the Caste System to India's decision of sending a Mars probe.

.
I brought it up. The discussion was about whether it was morally right to spend money on space exploration when the amount of poverty it has still exists.
I mentioned the caste system as one reason why poverty exists.

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How come no one asks about income in-equality or racial segregation or racial profiling issues when US sends a space probe

.
With all respect, although America has some poverty, it does not have 626 million people without access to a flushing toilet or a pit latrine.
India has 626 million people who "practice open defecation".
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  #102  
Old 07.11.2013, 14:28
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Re: India's mission to Mars

Every country has its own set of issues and problems. I think we've seen quite a few arguments why India should focus on its poor rather than send rockets to Mars. I have a few problems with this argument though.

Why does it have to be an either\or discussion? You are assuming that India is not doing anything to lift its poor from poverty. Why should we assume that all the money that could go to the poor is going to the space program instead.

As far as I know, there are programs to improve the infrastructure, provide jobs, etc., that are expected contribute to improving the lives of the poor already.

Also, why should the scientific talent go to waste? Why should these people go and work for NASA rather than work in their own country?

India has managed to launch the rocket from their own platform at 1/10th the cost. This is a huge achievement and promises to generate more revenue and jobs as other asian (or even european) countries might want to launch their satellites from this platform at lower cost.

Finally, why shouldn't an Asian country aspire to reach these heights of innovation and performance? India may never be able to have a space program if the poverty argument upholds. Poverty cannot be uprooted overnight... but sending up a rocket can improve our understanding of the universe forward.
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  #103  
Old 07.11.2013, 14:34
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Re: India's mission to Mars

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  #104  
Old 07.11.2013, 14:54
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Re: India's mission to Mars

I dont know.

Is it morally right that billionaire Hedge Fund Managers pay 15% effective tax rates while blue collar people pay almost 40% tax rate?

Is it morally right to invade countries and then rule them under the guide of 'civilising them'?

Is it morally right that we create non-tariff trade barriers yet ask for open markets and connected economies?

Is it morally right that over 20 million people were killed in pursuit of the cultural revolution? Or 4 million were allowed to die in a man made famine?

Is it morally right that we can dictate how a country should spend its money while we ourselves will not extend the same courtesy to others?

Is it morally right that we pass judgement on nations and their people while forgetting that for centuries together Asia was colonised and massive wealth transfer happened to the colonising nations which resulted in some of the inequities that we see today?

And finally is it morally right to pass judgement on a country by focussing on only one aspect (caste system) and ignoring all other issues.

I really dont know.
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  #105  
Old 07.11.2013, 14:58
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Re: India's mission to Mars

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And finally is it morally right to pass judgement on a country by focussing on only one aspect (caste system) and ignoring all other issues.

I really dont know.
No, I mentioned toilets too.

Anyway, it's a discussion. No one is passing judgement. Calm down

Next thing you know, we'll have a crowd growing and a public lynching.

(and that is one thing that I have experienced is quite popular in India, having almost been at the receiving end of it).
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  #106  
Old 07.11.2013, 15:13
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Re: India's mission to Mars

I also don't see why the caste system is relevant to India's space programme.
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  #107  
Old 07.11.2013, 15:16
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Re: India's mission to Mars

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I also don't see why the caste system is relevant to India's space programme.
It's not. But then neither is anything else if that's how you think. Especially if you can't be bothered to read any of the posts.
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  #108  
Old 07.11.2013, 15:48
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Re: India's mission to Mars

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It's not. But then neither is anything else if that's how you think. Especially if you can't be bothered to read any of the posts.
please can you explain it again? I'm not the only person on this thread not to understand your point about the caste system
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  #109  
Old 07.11.2013, 15:55
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Re: India's mission to Mars

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please can you explain it again? I'm not the only person on this thread not to understand your point about the caste system
It's not related to the space mission. Okay? Have you got that?

The OP (the one that started the thread), wrote:

Quote:
Should India be spending millions on sending an orbiting probe to Mars, when so many of the population are living in dire poverty?
There are three points there:

1. India
2. Mars (the space mission)
3. The poverty in India

I mentioned the caste system as it is said to be one of the main causes of poverty (the third point).

Now I appreciate that some people are blinkered and do not believe it to be the case but there you go. Being blinkered to what is happening in your own country happens to us all).

I actually thought (and wrote), that I thought the mission was great:

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They're all in awe.

I actually think it's a good effort from India.
I put a "Horn Please!" joke on the end but it was a joke and not to be taken seriously and if you have ever driven in India, you may just appreciate the joke.

So hats off to India with her good value space mission to Mars!
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  #110  
Old 07.11.2013, 16:01
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Re: India's mission to Mars

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No, I mentioned toilets too.

Anyway, it's a discussion. No one is passing judgement.
Now I'm confused. When all the Indians who didn't make astronaut graduation have to go to the toilet in the street, they pass judgement rather than urine?

Please explain how that works, I'd like to know.
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  #111  
Old 07.11.2013, 16:04
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Re: India's mission to Mars

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It's not related to the space mission. Okay? Have you got that?

The OP (the one that started the thread), wrote:



There are three points there:

1. India
2. Mars (the space mission)
3. The poverty in India

I mentioned the caste system as it is said to be one of the main causes of poverty (the third point).

Now I appreciate that some people are blinkered and do not believe it to be the case but there you go. Being blinkered to what is happening in your own country happens to us all).

I actually thought (and wrote), that I thought the mission was great:



I put a "Horn Please!" joke on the end but it was a joke and not to be taken seriously and if you have ever driven in India, you may just appreciate the joke.

So hats off to India with her good value space mission to Mars!
thanks
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  #112  
Old 07.11.2013, 16:12
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Re: India's mission to Mars

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Now I'm confused. When all the Indians who didn't make astronaut graduation have to go to the toilet in the street, they pass judgement rather than urine?

Please explain how that works, I'd like to know.
Don't you start!
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  #113  
Old 07.11.2013, 16:22
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Re: India's mission to Mars

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No, I mentioned toilets too.

Anyway, it's a discussion. No one is passing judgement. Calm down

Next thing you know, we'll have a crowd growing and a public lynching.

(and that is one thing that I have experienced is quite popular in India, having almost been at the receiving end of it).
Mob justice happens in other countries as well not just India. Just because you were almost at the receiving end of it does not mean it was or is "popular" there.

What did you do to receive such special attention?
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  #114  
Old 07.11.2013, 16:31
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Re: India's mission to Mars

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Mob justice happens in other countries as well not just India. Just because you were almost at the receiving end of it does not mean it was or is "popular" there.

What did you do to receive such special attention?
I drove over someone's foot.

Actually, what happened was I stopped in a village to ask directions and before I know it, about fifty people had surrounded me.
After much pushing and jostling, I got back in my car and tried to drive off very slowly.
Whilst driving off really slowly, I accidentally drove over someone's foot. I got out to see if they were all right and everyone started getting quite angry.

Luckily, a passing lawyer on a scooter told me to follow him quickly so I made my escape.
He took me back to his house on the side of town that I needed and his charming wife served us all tea and cakes and then he pointed out the correct road out of town.
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  #115  
Old 07.11.2013, 16:59
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Re: India's mission to Mars

You may not know,
but my answer is NO




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I dont know.

Is it morally right that billionaire Hedge Fund Managers pay 15% effective tax rates while blue collar people pay almost 40% tax rate?

Is it morally right to invade countries and then rule them under the guide of 'civilising them'?

Is it morally right that we create non-tariff trade barriers yet ask for open markets and connected economies?

Is it morally right that over 20 million people were killed in pursuit of the cultural revolution? Or 4 million were allowed to die in a man made famine?

Is it morally right that we can dictate how a country should spend its money while we ourselves will not extend the same courtesy to others?

Is it morally right that we pass judgement on nations and their people while forgetting that for centuries together Asia was colonised and massive wealth transfer happened to the colonising nations which resulted in some of the inequities that we see today?

And finally is it morally right to pass judgement on a country by focussing on only one aspect (caste system) and ignoring all other issues.

I really dont know.
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  #116  
Old 07.11.2013, 17:02
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Re: India's mission to Mars

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Also, why should the scientific talent go to waste? Why should these people go and work for NASA rather than work in their own country?

India has managed to launch the rocket from their own platform at 1/10th the cost. This is a huge achievement and promises to generate more revenue and jobs as other asian (or even european) countries might want to launch their satellites from this platform at lower cost.
Exactly!!
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  #117  
Old 07.11.2013, 17:36
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Re: India's mission to Mars

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There are three points there:

1. India
2. Mars (the space mission)
3. The poverty in India

I mentioned the caste system as it is said to be one of the main causes of poverty (the third point).
To offer another viewpoint, which I heard from a sociologist friend who has worked in India, that poverty is what keeps the caste system entrenched, and not the other way around. As the economic pie in India started shrinking since the 1700s, one of the consequences of the resulting reduction in social mobility were increasing divisions, in India`s case caste, to hold onto their piece of the pie. The system was helped along by the British, who hired clerks, administrators and soldiers from certain castes only. Other castes, such as weavers, found themselves starving, their professions falling victim to India being maintained as a captive market for the industrial revolution in England.

Similar forces can be seen worldwide today, with growing inequality reducing social mobility. The answer to that today, as it has been throughout history, is public investment for innovation. Aiming for the moon helped bring about the greatest wave of prosperity the USA ever saw, with >4% of US GDP being pumped into NASA at the peak of the moon program, through various effects, both social and technological.

India certainly cannot pump 4% of GDP into its space program without severely cutting off programs for the poor. But if investment in space could help all Americans become richer, a reduced version of it can certainly help all Indians as well by providing ways to escape the confines of caste.
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  #118  
Old 07.11.2013, 17:58
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Re: India's mission to Mars

India spends 3.1 BN dollars on buying arms from the west .. offcourse this money could be used to build toilets ..

Hence i request all concerned EF'ers to pressure their respective western governments to close their arms businesses catering to third world countries ..

after all charity begins at home ..
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  #119  
Old 08.11.2013, 21:55
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Re: India's mission to Mars

Just found a really nice article related to this topic, this will answers many questions raised in this post

Indian-Space-Mission-Poverty-and-Closet-Racism
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  #120  
Old 08.11.2013, 22:08
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Re: India's mission to Mars

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Just found a really nice article related to this topic, this will answers many questions raised in this post

Indian-Space-Mission-Poverty-and-Closet-Racism
Nice one, at at the end of the day Britain had to piggy-back the Beagle mission, then it crashed.
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