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  #41  
Old 14.12.2013, 10:47
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia to children

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This, most of all, is why I oppose the euthanasia/assisted suicide. movement. While I really do believe that many people who support it do so out of compassion, the main driver, politically, is not compassion. It is money, the assignation of monetary value to human life, and an ideology, where people who can never be, or have ceased to be productive members of society are considered of less worth.
I used to support the 'death with dignity' movement, at least from a philosophical viewpoint.

However my experiences of the last years, of the on-the-ground reality of caring for and advocating for terminally ill family members, has made me reconsider that support. I now oppose euthanasia in every case. No one can judge the worth of another human life, and so no one should ever be given the the right to do so. No one has the right to take another human life.

(Assisted suicide, when the decision is made by a legally competent adult, is another issue and something I am still wrestling with. Here I still feel individual choice must prevail - provided the individual is fully in a position to make that choice.)

The pendulum has swung too far, in my opinion. What started as a compassionate movement in response to desperate need is I fear now in danger of slipping down that slippery slope. I have several times felt pressured to approve steps my loved ones would not have wanted. What worries me most is that I see more and more an attitude that choosing to die is seen as noble and selfless, while the desire to live to the last has somehow started to be seen as a selfish choice. And I see more and more an attitude that devalues the intrinsic value of human life.

Based on what I have seen while caring for terminally ill loved ones, I worry that what was once a movement driven by pure compassion is in the process of being hijacked by some whose motive are less noble.

As before, I would like to see resources - that means funding - first put into widening access to hospice and palliative care. I think the debate would be framed differently if this third option were available to all.
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  #42  
Old 14.12.2013, 11:18
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia to children

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This.....



And, you are right, dealing with pain has an entirely different intent than actively ending life. Although in some cases, the same result occurs.

The other thing that I keep coming back to - people change their minds. All the time and even in these situations. The question of what to do for people with dementia, alzheimer's etc is very very difficult.

It's interesting to me how my mind has changed as I see how I might have this same decision in my own future - hopefully years and years ahead.
It is absolutely clear that personal experience does have a big influence on how one thinks about such issues. As said above, my mother lived 10 years of indignity too long, and just wanted to go, but my father would not let her go- it was so hard to watch and to hear her ask, again and again. The Old peoples' home where she was had a Charter which made it clear that Exit could not come and help one of their members in the Home. I intended to persuade dad to let her go, once we had moved here- so I could take her home and then call Exit so she could be with us, with the family. She died 3 weeks before our move here.

With my mil, we often used to 'joke' and discuss what she would want to happen if she ever came 'gaga' (her words) and she was adamant- if ever that happens to me, put a pillow over my head, PLEASE. Of course, we could not- and we watched as she got worse and worse, screaming, being violent, and doing some most incredible and disgusting things- then be sedated to stop the violence and other undescribable things, and become a vegetable. We would drive for 4 hours to go visit her, and she would not even notice we were there, or she would wonder who we were- then fall asleep- and we would drive back again. She was a teacher, from South Africa- and she always said she did not want vast sums of money be spent on her care if she ever got to that dreadful state. Of course it is not about money as such- but she would have wanted that money to be better spent, on children and young people who are very sick, education or poverty. She lived in that awful state for 3 years- and it cost a fortune (hers first, than the tax payer's)- and she herself would have really not wanted this, and seen it as a huge waste- as well as not wanting to be what she had become. There was a fun stage, when she loved the telly tubbies, and enjoyed having a little dance with staff, or go in garden to watch squirels and birds- but once that stage was over, she would have wanted to go.

But this thread is about something else- allowing children, who are clearly able to demonstrate that they understand, and that they clearly wish to go sooner rather than later- once the battle is clearly lost. It is not about age, it is about understanding- families and support staff are able to ensure that, and wait if it is not absolutely clear. It is not euthanesia- and I would not even use the term assisted suicide, as death is clear and imminent anyhow.

I know nothing about Belgium, but here in Neuchatel, palliative care in a specialised Hospice (La Chrysalide) is wonderful and well funded. Several friends of mine work there, and it is a wonderful place. It is good to know the choice is there. I don't think it would be for me- hence my membership to Exit- but the choice is there. And each and everyone of us should have that multitude of choice- shame it does not seem to be the case for Holland. Most hospices in the UK are charity run- ours in Leicestershire, LOROS, is a fantastic place, and several of my friends have died there, pain taken away and surrounded ba family, in a very peaceful way. But all charity funded. If Belgians feel strongly the choice should be there- they could start such a movement.

PS the title really should be changed- this has nothing to do with 'euthanasia'.

I would advise all who think that one day they MAY want to have the choice- even if they think they might perfer another solution. Exit membership is very low- and what is there to lose by being a member. The fees allow Exit to continue to fight for more choice- continue the fight to stop OAP homes to prevent members from seeking help within old people's homes, and looking at ways to improve current legislation to allow people to make very clear advance directives in case they are suddenly unable to physically administer the 'potion' themselves due to sudden reduction in movement, or in case of dementia or Alzheimers.

You need to be a resident in CH for more than 6 months to be elegible, and to be a member for about 6 months to, to ask for help- so it is best to be prepared- and to assist funds and studies/legislation at the same time. My mother was a member from the very start- and yet could not ask for help when she truly needed it. I can still see her making the gesture of cutting the imaginary string above her head- again, and again. Her wishes were clear.

Last edited by Odile; 14.12.2013 at 12:44.
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  #43  
Old 14.12.2013, 12:33
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia to children

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I used to support the 'death with dignity' movement, at least from a philosophical viewpoint.

However my experiences of the last years, of the on-the-ground reality of caring for and advocating for terminally ill family members, has made me reconsider that support. I now oppose euthanasia in every case.
For me, it's the other way around. I used to think nobody had the right to take another human's life. But looking at a loved one suffering unable to qualify for assisted suicide but counscious of his suffering in a clinic where people believed in paliative support to be humane. The medical team was ideologically to blind to see they were failing at doing what they pretended to do. I support now euthanasia.
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Old 14.12.2013, 12:41
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia to children

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For me, it's the other way around. I used to think nobody had the right to take another human's life. But looking at a loved one suffering unable to qualify for assisted suicide but counscious of his suffering in a clinic where people believed in paliative support to be humane. The medical team was ideologically to blind to see they were failing at doing what they pretended to do.
Do you say that because it is your opinion, or the opinion of your loved one? (Sorry if this is a painful question, feel free to ignore).
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  #45  
Old 14.12.2013, 12:48
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia to children

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Do you say that because it is your opinion, or the opinion of your loved one? (Sorry if this is a painful question, feel free to ignore).
My loved one is member of exit in Switzerland but didn't make it there when shit happened. To me, that's a clear enough statement of his wishes, hence my clear turning back on the don't kill anybody argument for ever.
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Old 14.12.2013, 12:54
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia to children

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I have to say the reasoning here is pretty weak. Children with terminal diseases are more 'grown up' than what you might think, also, depending on the age and the stage of the disease they might not even be able to make decisions.

Seeing children suffer terribly due to terminal cancer of severe degenerative disorders is indescribable (sp??) in a horrific kind of way.
of course some children are mature just as some girls under 16 are mature enough to give sexual consent but a line must be drawn somewhere.
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  #47  
Old 14.12.2013, 12:56
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia to children

Exactly- many establishments, private clinics and OAP homes- do not allow EXIT to help members within the institution (as was the case with the OAP home where my mother was). For many it is not a problem as they have family who are prepared to take them to their home - but for someone in terminal stage it is hugely difficult and exhausting to make the move. For many, who do not have relatives, or relatives who cannot bring themselves to organise this, for whatever reason- they may have been members of EXIT for many many years- but are trapped and unable to request help. This is WRONG.

The Manager of the OAP home where my mother was asked for this clause to be added to the charter. Her reason was that she had lost her husband of cancer, aged 42- and believed therefore that life is too precious. She just would not listen to the argument that my mum was 94, had been blind, totally dependent and doubly incontinent for about 10 years- and that she clearly did not want this to continue, and had made this very clear- even 30 years before when she had become a member of Exit, a beautiful, intelligent, open and amazingly healthy and happy woman- and that there is no comparison at all with her husband's sad and tragic death.

If someone in a local OAP home found themselves trapped in this kind of situation, I'd not hesistate to offer my home to them (Exit is aware).
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  #48  
Old 14.12.2013, 13:13
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Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia to children

In the end it's clear to me that both sides have merit. I won't judge someone else's decision, but neither do I want someone else to decide for me. If an adult can make such a decision, does it follow that a well informed child can do the same? This really needs a thorough examination outside the realm of politics, political correctness and economics.

And I think even adult decision making requires more study.
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  #49  
Old 14.12.2013, 18:06
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia to children

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PS the title really should be changed- this has nothing to do with 'euthanasia'.
I agree that the term euthanasia can give the wrong impression. It generally implies taking a life without the permission/knowledge of the individual. This may be for the right reasons but is getting into much more difficult territory.

Another term that I have difficulty with is 'assisted suicide'. My problem with it is the association with suicide, that usually implies that the individual was not making a rational decision.

The nearest to a suitable term that I have heard is 'dignified death'.
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Old 14.12.2013, 18:26
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia to children

Maybe assisted death?
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  #51  
Old 14.12.2013, 20:58
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia [assisted death with consent] to childr

Title changed to hopefully? better suit the topic. I do not object if Castro changes it back though, as it appears he used the word in the article and wasn't just making it up to cause a stir.
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Old 17.12.2013, 00:16
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia to children

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Speechless because some idiotic journalist used word children in title? They are talking about mature self awared people who are not yet 18 years (we all know this is a magic barrier after which we all got suddenly responsible). Not powerless toddlers who are killed by stepmother to get new shinny black dress (and hat with veil) for funeral.

The problem is possibly one of translation as an article in Belgium is either in Flemish or in French
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Old 17.12.2013, 00:24
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia to children

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I used to support the 'death with dignity' movement, at least from a philosophical viewpoint.

However my experiences of the last years, of the on-the-ground reality of caring for and advocating for terminally ill family members, has made me reconsider that support. I now oppose euthanasia in every case. No one can judge the worth of another human life, and so no one should ever be given the the right to do so. No one has the right to take another human life.

(Assisted suicide, when the decision is made by a legally competent adult, is another issue and something I am still wrestling with. Here I still feel individual choice must prevail - provided the individual is fully in a position to make that choice.)

The pendulum has swung too far, in my opinion. What started as a compassionate movement in response to desperate need is I fear now in danger of slipping down that slippery slope. I have several times felt pressured to approve steps my loved ones would not have wanted. What worries me most is that I see more and more an attitude that choosing to die is seen as noble and selfless, while the desire to live to the last has somehow started to be seen as a selfish choice. And I see more and more an attitude that devalues the intrinsic value of human life.

Based on what I have seen while caring for terminally ill loved ones, I worry that what was once a movement driven by pure compassion is in the process of being hijacked by some whose motive are less noble.

As before, I would like to see resources - that means funding - first put into widening access to hospice and palliative care. I think the debate would be framed differently if this third option were available to all.
Mum and me discussed matters with a doctor and finally signed the option of pallliative care. Which clearly was THE way to go.
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Old 17.12.2013, 00:28
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia to children

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of course some children are mature just as some girls under 16 are mature enough to give sexual consent but a line must be drawn somewhere.
You totally misread my comment, the previous poster was referring to children now knowing, well that is not always the case. The bottom line is the parents are the ones to make the decision given a number of conditions, as for example, the disease being terminal...
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Old 17.12.2013, 00:58
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia [assisted death with consent] to childr

This kit is sold in 250 pharmacies across Belgium for ~€60, as a pharmacy graduate myself I find it disconcerting to say the least. I would love to read a paper on the ethics of supplying these, and what protection exists for Pharmacists who refuse to do so on principle?



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Old 17.12.2013, 01:37
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia [assisted death with consent] to childr

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This kit is sold in 250 pharmacies across Belgium for ~€60, as a pharmacy graduate myself I find it disconcerting to say the least. I would love to read a paper on the ethics of supplying these, and what protection exists for Pharmacists who refuse to do so on principle?
Yes. That is totally wrong as far as I can see. They should only be available under very controlled circumsatances
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Old 17.12.2013, 10:24
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia [assisted death with consent] to childr

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This kit is sold in 250 pharmacies across Belgium for ~€60, as a pharmacy graduate myself I find it disconcerting to say the least. I would love to read a paper on the ethics of supplying these, and what protection exists for Pharmacists who refuse to do so on principle
Wow. Demo? And is the person still alive after you "demonstrate?"
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Old 17.12.2013, 10:35
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia [assisted death with consent] to childr

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This kit is sold in 250 pharmacies across Belgium for ~€60, as a pharmacy graduate myself I find it disconcerting to say the least. I would love to read a paper on the ethics of supplying these, and what protection exists for Pharmacists who refuse to do so on principle?
I can only say...WTF?
However, this would have to do with the whole euthanasia thing and not only that with children, still this is really disturbing
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Old 17.12.2013, 10:40
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia [assisted death with consent] to childr

This appears to be exactly what i and Castro were afraid of. Perhaps we are already slipping down the slippery slope?
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Old 17.12.2013, 11:51
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia [assisted death with consent] to childr

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This kit is sold in 250 pharmacies across Belgium for ~€60, as a pharmacy graduate myself I find it disconcerting to say the least. I would love to read a paper on the ethics of supplying these, and what protection exists for Pharmacists who refuse to do so on principle?



It's not quite as simple as walking into a pharmacy and buying one.
The kits are available for GP's who have agreed to visit a patient in his/her home and administer the drugs.
Their use is quite strictly regulated.
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