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  #61  
Old 17.12.2013, 19:45
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia to children

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I used to support the 'death with dignity' movement, at least from a philosophical viewpoint.

However my experiences of the last years, of the on-the-ground reality of caring for and advocating for terminally ill family members, has made me reconsider that support. I now oppose euthanasia in every case. No one can judge the worth of another human life, and so no one should ever be given the the right to do so. No one has the right to take another human life.

(Assisted suicide, when the decision is made by a legally competent adult, is another issue and something I am still wrestling with. Here I still feel individual choice must prevail - provided the individual is fully in a position to make that choice.)

The pendulum has swung too far, in my opinion. What started as a compassionate movement in response to desperate need is I fear now in danger of slipping down that slippery slope. I have several times felt pressured to approve steps my loved ones would not have wanted. What worries me most is that I see more and more an attitude that choosing to die is seen as noble and selfless, while the desire to live to the last has somehow started to be seen as a selfish choice. And I see more and more an attitude that devalues the intrinsic value of human life.

Based on what I have seen while caring for terminally ill loved ones, I worry that what was once a movement driven by pure compassion is in the process of being hijacked by some whose motive are less noble.

As before, I would like to see resources - that means funding - first put into widening access to hospice and palliative care. I think the debate would be framed differently if this third option were available to all.
When I read that church-leaders tried to influence the matter, I am even more approving the new law.
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  #62  
Old 18.12.2013, 13:39
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia to children

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When I read that church-leaders tried to influence the matter, I am even more approving the new law.
I'm confused - how do you equate my post with religion?

For the record, those putting pressuring our family did not bring religion into the discussion at all, from any viewpoint.

But as above, it was clear to me that some health care staff placed their own ideological views above the wishes of the patient.

In the face of such strongly held ideology, I feel uneasy for vulnerable patients.

As I have said before, and will continue saying: No one has the right to judge the worth or quality of another human life.
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  #63  
Old 18.12.2013, 14:05
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia to children

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But as above, it was clear to me that some health care staff placed their own ideological views above the wishes of the patient.

In the face of such strongly held ideology, I feel uneasy for vulnerable patients.
Indeed, but inmy experience,it was the ideological anti-euthanasia who did exactly that. The attitude and the opinion are distinct. It made you anti, it made me pro.
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  #64  
Old 18.12.2013, 19:02
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia to children

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I'm confused - how do you equate my post with religion?

For the record, those putting pressuring our family did not bring religion into the discussion at all, from any viewpoint.

But as above, it was clear to me that some health care staff placed their own ideological views above the wishes of the patient.

In the face of such strongly held ideology, I feel uneasy for vulnerable patients.

As I have said before, and will continue saying: No one has the right to judge the worth or quality of another human life.
NOT your post ! But it was stated at the beginning that "religious leaders" opposed the law
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  #65  
Old 22.07.2014, 13:17
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia [assisted death with consent] to childr

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This kit is sold in 250 pharmacies across Belgium for ~€60, as a pharmacy graduate myself I find it disconcerting to say the least. I would love to read a paper on the ethics of supplying these, and what protection exists for Pharmacists who refuse to do so on principle?



I was listening to a BBC documentary about the death penalty in the US and the fact that many Pharma companies in the early days refused to sell their drugs to the US if it were destined for lethal injection. This was then followed by an EU wide export ban in 2005.

All well and good, but if I were a conservative American I would be questioning the hypocrisy of the pharma companies and the EU in general i.e. Its fine to use these products for euthanasia (which I object to), but not the lawful killing of capital criminals (which Europeans object to)?

Could it be that we speak with forked tongues? Discuss
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  #66  
Old 22.07.2014, 13:19
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia [assisted death with consent] to childr

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All well and good, but if I were a conservative American I would be questioning the hypocrisy of (…) the EU in general
No hypocrisy because the question is WHY people are killed, not HOW.
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  #67  
Old 22.07.2014, 13:44
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia [assisted death with consent] to childr

The euthanasiekit is for sale already since 2005. It is meant for doctors, to help them to use the right drugs. Also up till then, there weren't enough drugs available to meet the demands, causing a waiting list and weeks of suffering before euthanasia could be performed.
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  #68  
Old 22.07.2014, 14:22
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia [assisted death with consent] to childr

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The euthanasiekit is for sale already since 2005. It is meant for doctors, to help them to use the right drugs. Also up till then, there weren't enough drugs available to meet the demands, causing a waiting list and weeks of suffering before euthanasia could be performed.
If it is meant for doctors, why are pharmacies selling it?
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  #69  
Old 22.07.2014, 14:57
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia [assisted death with consent] to childr

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All well and good, but if I were a conservative American I would be questioning the hypocrisy of the pharma companies and the EU in general i.e. Its fine to use these products for euthanasia (which I object to), but not the lawful killing of capital criminals (which Europeans object to)?
Capital Punishment has been abolished in all countries in the EU (and almost all countries in the whole of Europe), so drugs shouldn't be sold from the EU for this express purpose.

Euthanasia is legal inside the EU, if a country wishes to allow it. Therefore, drugs can be sold for this purpose.

Taking it to extremes, what you are suggesting is that if it is legal to use Biological weapons in say Iraq, the EU should be allowed to supply them for this purpose...clearly this would be wrong...right?
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  #70  
Old 22.07.2014, 15:08
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia [assisted death with consent] to childr

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If it is meant for doctors, why are pharmacies selling it?
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It's not quite as simple as walking into a pharmacy and buying one.
The kits are available for GP's who have agreed to visit a patient in his/her home and administer the drugs.
Their use is quite strictly regulated.
As I said in my previous post you can't just walk into a Belgian pharmacy and buy one.
A GP can agree to administer the drugs to a patient in their own home and to do so he has to obtain the kit from one if the pharmacies who supply them. Even then they usually have to order them and collect them the next day, the pharmacies don't routinely keep them in stock.

It is only registered doctors who are allowed to purchase them from the pharmacy and not any old person.
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Old 22.07.2014, 15:12
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia [assisted death with consent] to childr

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Euthanasia is legal inside the EU, if a country wishes to allow it. Therefore, drugs can be sold for this purpose.
Strictly speaking Euthanasia is only legal in Be-Ne-Lux. Assisted dying is legal in a handful of other European countries including CH. However if a drug is produced in the UK where neither are legal, does that mean the product shouldn't be sold or used in those countries, or has nobody really thought about it?

I personally think we are being inconsistent. Execution in certain US states is lawful killing, just like Euthanasia is lawful killing in Belgium.
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Old 22.07.2014, 15:22
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia [assisted death with consent] to childr

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Strictly speaking Euthanasia is only legal in Be-Ne-Lux. Assisted dying is legal in a handful of other European countries including CH. However if a drug is produced in the UK where neither are legal, does that mean the product shouldn't be sold or used in those countries, or has nobody really thought about it?

I personally think we are being inconsistent. Execution in certain US states is lawful killing, just like its lawful killing in Belgium.
Yes, but it is only lawful in the USA (or in certain States) and NOT legal inside the EU. It is NOT legal within the EU for any country to practise the Death Penalty.

Stoning women for having unmarried sex in Saudi/Iran is legal, but definitely NOT legal within the EU. You can see there would be an issue if we sold them the stones.

Assisted Suicide/dying and Euthanasia is entirely legal for a member country of the EU to decide on for themselves. Whether it is legal within each country is entirely up to them, but the EU will not rule against them should they choose to implement it. They would against the Death Penalty.
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Old 22.07.2014, 15:47
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia [assisted death with consent] to childr

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As I said in my previous post you can't just walk into a Belgian pharmacy and buy one.
A GP can agree to administer the drugs to a patient in their own home and to do so he has to obtain the kit from one if the pharmacies who supply them. Even then they usually have to order them and collect them the next day, the pharmacies don't routinely keep them in stock.

It is only registered doctors who are allowed to purchase them from the pharmacy and not any old person.

Totally similar to Switzerland, except we don't have ready-made kits here. My best friend's brother, a pharmacist, regularly prepares lethal potions for the local Exit branch's doctor.
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Old 22.07.2014, 15:50
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia [assisted death with consent] to childr

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Totally similar to Switzerland, except we don't have ready-made kits here. My best friend's brother, a pharmacist, regularly prepares lethal potions for the local Exit branch's doctor.
And the doctor survives every time?

Maybe he should try a more potent mixture?
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Old 22.07.2014, 20:11
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia [assisted death with consent] to childr

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All well and good, but if I were a conservative American I would be questioning the hypocrisy of the pharma companies and the EU in general i.e. Its fine to use these products for euthanasia (which I object to), but not the lawful killing of capital criminals (which Europeans object to)?
Bang on, this is what I don't understand about the BENLUX countries, they are so anti-death penalty for those who committed hainious crimes but have no problem killing a deformed child (especially the Dutch).
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  #76  
Old 22.07.2014, 20:31
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia [assisted death with consent] to childr

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Totally similar to Switzerland, except we don't have ready-made kits here. My best friend's brother, a pharmacist, regularly prepares lethal potions for the local Exit branch's doctor.
Not all Exit 'accompagnateur/trice/s are doctors and will get it on prescription from a doctor.
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Old 22.07.2014, 20:42
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia [assisted death with consent] to childr

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Yes, but it is only lawful in the USA (or in certain States) and NOT legal inside the EU. It is NOT legal within the EU for any country to practise the Death Penalty.

Stoning women for having unmarried sex in Saudi/Iran is legal, but definitely NOT legal within the EU. You can see there would be an issue if we sold them the stones.

Assisted Suicide/dying and Euthanasia is entirely legal for a member country of the EU to decide on for themselves. Whether it is legal within each country is entirely up to them, but the EU will not rule against them should they choose to implement it. They would against the Death Penalty.
Yet we're quite happy to sell them weapons, so what's the difference?

If the pharma companies refuse to sell products which could be used in excutions, shouldn't they also refuse to sell things like fertilizer which can be used to make bombs? Let's face it, the only reason the European companies aren't providing the goods is that there isn't ENOUGH demand for them to make them profitable. After all there were only 39 executions in the US last year while there were 3,088 prisoners on death row. You're not going to make any profit on that small execution rate.

Btw, this judge seems to have the right idea. Forget about the drugs and use something else.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/let...utions-n161641
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  #78  
Old 22.07.2014, 20:58
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia [assisted death with consent] to childr

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...but have no problem killing a deformed child (especially the Dutch).
The killing of terminally ill newborns who suffer unbearably without prospect of improvement that is.

It is a distortion of reality that the Dutch 'have no problem' applying the so-called Groningen protocol to these infants, which concerns a few cases per year in all of the Netherlands only. The kind of children we are talking about are: '[...] newborns with hydrocephalus and no brain. [...] a child with spina bifida with a sack of brain fluid attached where all the nerves are floating around [...] barely able to breathe, and would have to undergo at least sixty operations in the course of a year to temporarily alleviate its problems. These operations would not ease the pain. Moreover, the child would suffer such unbearable pain that it has to be constantly anaesthetised'

In our culture, in these cases, we generally do not see passive sedation (which in practice is witholding food and water from a dying baby) as morally superior to active euthanasia.

That any parent could simply ask for euthanasia for any case of spina bifida is nonsense - the 22 cases mentioned in the telegraph blog referred to by Castro were ALL reported cases between 1997 and 2004.

In any case, the slippery slope tilted the other way than expected: because of better prenatal screening (more covered ultrasounds) the euthanasia rate in newborns plummeted since then.

Last edited by mgosia; 22.07.2014 at 21:51.
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Old 23.07.2014, 01:06
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia [assisted death with consent] to childr

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Groningen protocol.
Ya, I've read about the Groningen protocol, I don't have much use for it; it could become a slippery slope one day.

I dislike the moral superiority some in Europe have toward the USA in regards to the death penalty when parts of Europe have Groningen or like protocols; the death penalty has it's place (good examples of US states who do the death penalty right are Oregon and Nebraska)
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Old 23.07.2014, 08:57
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Re: Belgian Senate votes to extend euthanasia [assisted death with consent] to childr

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Yet we're quite happy to sell them weapons, so what's the difference?

If the pharma companies refuse to sell products which could be used in excutions, shouldn't they also refuse to sell things like fertilizer which can be used to make bombs?
I suppose you have to use your discretion.

If we sell arms to the US, what are the chances they will be used for something that is illegal inside the EU (i.e. Killing Prisoners on Death Row) or something that is legal inside the EU, like shooting Afghani children.

Anything can be used as a weapon if you put your mind to it - not selling products that are primarily agricultural is as daft as not selling Caran d'Ache pens to any country, in case a citizen jams it in another citizen's eye.
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