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  #181  
Old 18.03.2014, 12:56
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Violet Elizabeth Bott has spoken:

I'll thcweam and thcweam and thcweam till I'm THICK!
...I can't see it clearly, but it seems it's her hitting the wa..floor this time....

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  #182  
Old 18.03.2014, 16:56
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Seems Erdogan is stronger than the EU/US?
From today's papers "Turkey has reportedly threatened to close the Bosphorus to Russian ships, if there is violence against the Crimean Tatars.

In his speech today, President Putin was at pains to stress that the rights of Tatars, persecuted and deported from Ukraine in the Stalin-era, would be protected.

Citing a diplomatic source, the Sofia news agency says that Turkey’s prime minister Recep Erdogan made the threat in a telephone conversation with Putin.
"
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  #183  
Old 18.03.2014, 16:57
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Seems Erdogan is stronger than the EU/US?
Clever positioning (if true) - credit where credit's due and all that...
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  #184  
Old 18.03.2014, 20:32
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Seems Erdogan is stronger than the EU/US?
From today's papers "Turkey has reportedly threatened to close the Bosphorus to Russian ships, if there is violence against the Crimean Tatars.
.
"
...when, after he bans Facebook and YouTube?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...dia-sites.html
...there are elections there....
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  #185  
Old 18.03.2014, 20:44
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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...when, after he bans Facebook and YouTube?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...dia-sites.html
...there are elections there....
Of course; he is looking for votes - like Putin, and Cameron and everyone except Obama because he cannot serve another term
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  #186  
Old 18.03.2014, 21:23
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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So in order to justify Russia's takeover of Crimea, you can only repeatedly point to the bombing of NATO in Serbia? If referencing questionable acts is the best rationale you can find, then that doesn't say much about the basis of Russia's invasion of Crimea, does it?
Maybe not, but tells so much about NATO cronies talking about 'territorial integrity'.

There is an old saying about a hooker and morality...
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  #187  
Old 18.03.2014, 22:51
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Maybe not, but tells so much about NATO cronies talking about 'territorial integrity'.

There is an old saying about a hooker and morality...
I have no clue what is the point you are making - Do you mean the Ukraine govt. are the NATO cronies talking about 'territorial integrity'?

I have news for you; Ukraine is not part of NATO.
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  #188  
Old 18.03.2014, 22:53
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Ukraine officer 'killed in attack on Crimea base'

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Ukraine's military says an officer has been killed in an attack on a base in Crimea, the first such death since pro-Russia forces took control in February.

Ukraine has now authorised its troops to fire in self-defence....

Crimean police later said both Ukrainian and pro-Russian forces had been fired on from a single location and that one Ukrainian was killed and one injured, and one pro-Russian was killed and one injured.

None of the accounts can be independently confirmed.
It sounds as if the situation may be being escalated deliberately.

Putin's move on Crimea bolsters popularity back home
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Putin said Tuesday that he doesn't want to split Ukraine, easing fears that tensions in the region will escalate further.
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  #189  
Old 18.03.2014, 23:00
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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I have news for you; Ukraine is not part of NATO.
NATO-Ukraine charta dates back 1997. The text is explicit about the progressive steps towards closer and closer relationship. Do you speak diplomatian?
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  #190  
Old 18.03.2014, 23:07
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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NATO-Ukraine charta dates back 1997. The text is explicit about the progressive steps towards closer and closer relationship. Do you speak diplomatian?
Ukraine was never part of NATO; there were some discussions but the Ukraine parliament finally rejected the idea of joining NATO in 2010 by 226 votes.
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  #191  
Old 18.03.2014, 23:08
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Ukraine was never part of NATO; there were some discussions but the Ukraine parliament finally rejected the idea of joining NATO in 2010 by 226 votes.
I bet they're kicking themselves now.
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  #192  
Old 18.03.2014, 23:18
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Ukraine was never part of NATO; there were some discussions but the Ukraine parliament finally rejected the idea of joining NATO in 2010 by 226 votes.
That's not my point. Kosovo isn't member either (for other reason, we can agree on that, but still)

One more time:
What matters to Moscow is not what Kiev vote for or against, that doesn't change a thing to them. What matters is what the NATO does at the borders of the country. The US doesn't wait for countries to be member of NATO to get their fingers in the jam jar. Russia won't have a quasi-nato base at their door step. They can't do anything against Poland and Lithuania, they can in Ukraine/Crimea so they do it. Same about communism in Central american, US could do nothing against Cuba, they could in Nicaragua and Salvador, so they did. My point is about Russia, not Ukrainian votings. Open your mind to Russian thought, just for argument's sake.
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  #193  
Old 18.03.2014, 23:35
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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That's not my point. Kosovo isn't member either (for other reason, we can agree on that, but still)

One more time:
What matters to Moscow is not what Kiev vote for or against, that doesn't change a thing to them. What matters is what the NATO does at the borders of the country. The US doesn't wait for countries to be member of NATO to get their fingers in the jam jar. Russia won't have a quasi-nato base at their door step. They can't do anything against Poland and Lithuania, they can in Ukraine/Crimea so they do it. Same about communism in Central american, US could do nothing against Cuba, they could in Nicaragua and Salvador, so they did. My point is about Russia, not Ukrainian votings. Open your mind to Russian thought, just for argument's sake.
But if Russia takes over Crimea and East Ukraine then it is moving geographically closer to NATO bases especially if it moves Russian military into the occupied territories?

By the Way
Prime Minister Vladimir Putin allegedly declared at a NATO-Russia summit in 2008 that if Ukraine joined NATO his country could contend to annex the Ukrainian East and Crimea.

The Russians might also think about all the countries they grabbed during World War II and stayed uninvited for 50 years brutally suppressing democracy.
Then Russians might also think about why these countries now want NATO bases before they are condemned to another 50 years. Or is it OK for Russia to invade and brutally control countries just to provide a buffer between the West and Russia.
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  #194  
Old 19.03.2014, 00:15
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:

Ukraine's military says an officer has been killed in an attack on a base in Crimea, the first such death since pro-Russia forces took control in February.

Ukraine has now authorised its troops to fire in self-defence....

Crimean police later said both Ukrainian and pro-Russian forces had been fired on from a single location and that one Ukrainian was killed and one injured, and one pro-Russian was killed and one injured.

None of the accounts can be independently confirmed.
Quote:
It sounds as if the situation may be being escalated deliberately.

Putin's move on Crimea bolsters popularity back home
About "It sounds as if the situation may be being escalated deliberately." There also seem to be armed pro-Russian local militias running around who are supported by the Russians; but they are not fully under Russian control and may be responsible for such incidents which would upset Putin's strategies like "not one shot fired in Crimea!".
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  #195  
Old 19.03.2014, 00:52
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Seems Erdogan is stronger than the EU/US?
From today's papers "Turkey has reportedly threatened to close the Bosphorus to Russian ships, if there is violence against the Crimean Tatars.

In his speech today, President Putin was at pains to stress that the rights of Tatars, persecuted and deported from Ukraine in the Stalin-era, would be protected.

Citing a diplomatic source, the Sofia news agency says that Turkey’s prime minister Recep Erdogan made the threat in a telephone conversation with Putin.
"
Looks as if the Czar and the Sultan are making their points. Erdogan of couse can see that with taking the Crimea, Russia is improving its position towards the South in a big way. And wanted to tell Putin not to mess with Turkey. The Turkish armed forces with only some 3 million men under weapons may be much smaller than Russia, but the Russians of course know that the Turkish army of now is not the Osman army of Sultan Abdel Hamid II . And the Russans of course know that nobody in Turkey wants to conquer Russia so that a new version of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact might be a nice option.
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  #196  
Old 19.03.2014, 06:54
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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By the Way
Prime Minister Vladimir Putin allegedly declared at a NATO-Russia summit in 2008 that if Ukraine joined NATO his country could contend to annex the Ukrainian East and Crimea.
.
allegedly. By the way, he said the contrary yesterday. Not allegedly, in public. Contrary to western newspaper readers, Putin knows that a Russian speaking Ukrainian is still a Ukrainian. Language, nationality and citizenship and three different concepts in the ex-soviet world.

As for the Tatars, they are no less safe as any other Tatar anywhere else in Russia… and plenty other minorities of all kinds. Propaganda needs to portray the bad guy as a kind of nazi, so they need a kind of jew. Fantasy does most of the work, it's propaganda, remember?
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  #197  
Old 19.03.2014, 08:04
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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....
The right-wing "facist" thing has been trumped up by Russia as an excuse to invade to "protect" Russians. There are some small right-wing radicals, but they don't have much pwer in Kiev.
.....
Take a look at what happened recently. Welcome to the new and democratic Ukraine.


"The head of the National Television Company of Ukraine (NTU) has been beaten by members of the nationalist Svoboda party and forced to write a letter of resignation over allegations that his channel aired anti-Ukrainian content.
.....
NTU is state-run and operates the nation’s largest public broadcaster, Pershyi Natsionalnyi.

Svoboda (Freedom) party members yelled at the interim CEO and beat him in the face, accusing the channel of a lack of nationalism and forcefully demanding his resignation.
......

“As of 11:00 GMT, March 11th, 50 percent of providers throughout Ukraine have disabled broadcasting of foreign channels” and others are preparing to follow, the National Television and Radio Broadcasting Council of Ukraine said on its website.

This was not the first time that nationalist radicals coerced individuals to sign resignation letters by using violence and threats. Far-right radicals wearing masks stormed a city council meeting last week, armed with bats and hammers."

http://www.rt.com/news/ukraine-force...tionalism-674/
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  #198  
Old 19.03.2014, 08:17
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Looks as if the Czar and the Sultan are making their points. .
Who's the Habsburg in this game? It's becoming freaking scary...
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  #199  
Old 19.03.2014, 08:19
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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That's not my point. Kosovo isn't member either (for other reason, we can agree on that, but still)

One more time:
What matters to Moscow is not what Kiev vote for or against, that doesn't change a thing to them. What matters is what the NATO does at the borders of the country. The US doesn't wait for countries to be member of NATO to get their fingers in the jam jar. Russia won't have a quasi-nato base at their door step. They can't do anything against Poland and Lithuania, they can in Ukraine/Crimea so they do it. Same about communism in Central american, US could do nothing against Cuba, they could in Nicaragua and Salvador, so they did. My point is about Russia, not Ukrainian votings. Open your mind to Russian thought, just for argument's sake.
all correct except that the Crimea is more important to Russia than the Ukraine, as the Crimea is THE place in the Black Sea and the door towards the South. THIS is what Katharina II had in mind and what Vladimir P. now has in mind, Russia already announced that a gigantic bridge will be built to link the Krasnodar Region with the Peninsula as swiftly as possible.

Which means that Putin-Russia has TWO options, Bulgaria and Iran. Vladimir P will take his chances wherever
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  #200  
Old 19.03.2014, 08:22
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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But if Russia takes over Crimea and East Ukraine then it is moving geographically closer to NATO bases especially if it moves Russian military into the occupied territories?

By the Way
Prime Minister Vladimir Putin allegedly declared at a NATO-Russia summit in 2008 that if Ukraine joined NATO his country could contend to annex the Ukrainian East and Crimea.

The Russians might also think about all the countries they grabbed during World War II and stayed uninvited for 50 years brutally suppressing democracy.
Then Russians might also think about why these countries now want NATO bases before they are condemned to another 50 years. Or is it OK for Russia to invade and brutally control countries just to provide a buffer between the West and Russia.
I frankly spoken had to consult the maps. And realised that Russia via the Krasnodar Region has full access to the Krim and no need for Eastern Ukraine.

The real problem for Putin are not Merkel and Obama but Nursultan Naserbayev and Islam Karimov.
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