Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Off-Topic > Off-Topic > International affairs/politics  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #2061  
Old 12.02.2022, 17:01
komsomolez's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SZ
Posts: 4,090
Groaned at 400 Times in 286 Posts
Thanked 8,792 Times in 3,759 Posts
komsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
You know perfectly well that this is meant as an scenario. Trying to claim that it's meant literally, and refusing it on that basis, is nothing but a rhetoric manoeuvre to avoid a real answer.
Of course this is not meant literally. All I was trying to show was how flawed the analogy is.

As for propaganda, have a look at the NZZ article I posted this morning.
Reply With Quote
  #2062  
Old 12.02.2022, 17:27
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: SG
Posts: 10,633
Groaned at 657 Times in 477 Posts
Thanked 14,440 Times in 7,550 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Of course this is not meant literally. All I was trying to show was how flawed the analogy is.
You don't show that by claiming it's not realistic, it doesn't need to be. How many people have literally tried to push a camel through a needle's ear? How many people have literally searched a haystack in search of a needle?

Again, if you believe there's no US propaganda and everything you read is the truth I have land on the moon to sell.

And btw, Biden's domestic popularity is through the bottom, the army has no purpose lately and Nato has been looking for one for decades. It's common practice for politicians to conjure up, or create, a foreign enemy to improve their popularity.

Last edited by Urs Max; 12.02.2022 at 17:40.
Reply With Quote
  #2063  
Old 12.02.2022, 17:40
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Kt.Zh
Posts: 12,170
Groaned at 487 Times in 402 Posts
Thanked 19,076 Times in 9,649 Posts
greenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond reputegreenmount has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post

And btw, Biden's domestic popularity is through the bottom, the army has no purpose and Nato has been looking for one for decades. It's common practice for politicians to conjure up, or create, a foreign enemy to remedy that.
This conflict is way older than Biden's presidency. They didn't just create a foreign enemy.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank greenmount for this useful post:
  #2064  
Old 12.02.2022, 17:40
gaburko's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: BL
Posts: 1,283
Groaned at 235 Times in 170 Posts
Thanked 4,625 Times in 1,749 Posts
gaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
And btw, Biden's popularity is through the bottom. It's common practice for politicians to conjure up, or create, a foreign enemy to remedy that.
I agree with the principle, but in this particular case, Biden was reactive, Putin was proactive. So if there's someone whose conjuring foreign enemies in this case, that ain't in the White House
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank gaburko for this useful post:
  #2065  
Old 12.02.2022, 18:22
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: SG
Posts: 10,633
Groaned at 657 Times in 477 Posts
Thanked 14,440 Times in 7,550 Posts
Urs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond reputeUrs Max has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
I agree with the principle, but in this particular case, Biden was reactive, Putin was proactive. So if there's someone whose conjuring foreign enemies in this case, that ain't in the White House
Nothing happened as of yet.

Unless your position is that the troop buildup is indeed "something". In which case however you need to consider Nato manoeuvres and similar as well, in which Biden was far from re-active only. Including, most notably, the british HMS Defender "patrolling" last year in the disputed waters around the Crimea it had no business being in in the first place. Supposedly the ship was on its way to Georgia, the very same country that attacked Russia in 2008 a few months after Bush proclaimed that Georgia and UA were on a direct path to Nato membership.

Even Wiki says that the HMS Defender incident was a planned and deliberate provocation, and that the UK was well aware of the risks and dangers involved. As proven by the documents someone left (or "happened" to leave?) at a bus station.

As for each nation's right to decide for themselves:
Where's the outrcy about Biden's clear order to Scholz to tear down NS2?
Reply With Quote
  #2066  
Old 12.02.2022, 18:33
komsomolez's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SZ
Posts: 4,090
Groaned at 400 Times in 286 Posts
Thanked 8,792 Times in 3,759 Posts
komsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
HMS Defender "patrolling" last year in the disputed waters around the Crimea
Disputed waters, huh?

Reply With Quote
  #2067  
Old 12.02.2022, 18:36
gaburko's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: BL
Posts: 1,283
Groaned at 235 Times in 170 Posts
Thanked 4,625 Times in 1,749 Posts
gaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Even Wiki says that the HMS Defender incident was a planned and deliberate provocation
This is true. However, for every NATO provocation there's at least 10 Russian ones. I think I mentioned a few pages back about the monthly incursions of Russian jets into the Romanian and Bulgarian airspace from the Black Sea forcing Greek jets to scramble and push them out. Russian Blackjack bombers flew all the way from Norway to Spain. BTW, the Blackjacks are supersonic strategic bombers capable of carrying nuclear weapons. Tu-95 Bear bombers were intercepted jointly by the UK and Belgium. The list can go on and on for a very long time, my point is, Russia's provocations are the daily life of NATO jet pilots. Literally.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank gaburko for this useful post:
  #2068  
Old 12.02.2022, 18:40
komsomolez's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SZ
Posts: 4,090
Groaned at 400 Times in 286 Posts
Thanked 8,792 Times in 3,759 Posts
komsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Supposedly the ship was on its way to Georgia, the very same country that attacked Russia in 2008 a few months after Bush proclaimed that Georgia and UA were on a direct path to Nato membership.
Even better.
Reply With Quote
  #2069  
Old 12.02.2022, 19:02
NotAllThere's Avatar
Modulo 2
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 16,201
Groaned at 348 Times in 301 Posts
Thanked 25,612 Times in 10,428 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

I've just read an account of Liz Truss's visit.

We're doomed.
Reply With Quote
  #2070  
Old 12.02.2022, 19:14
gaburko's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: BL
Posts: 1,283
Groaned at 235 Times in 170 Posts
Thanked 4,625 Times in 1,749 Posts
gaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
I've just read an account of Liz Truss's visit.

We're doomed.
Lavrov was as usual giving her a masterclass in diplomacy and no surprise, she failed miserably.

"...two diplomatic sources as saying that during their earlier closed-door meeting Lavrov had asked Truss if she recognised Russian sovereignty over Rostov and Voronezh - two regions in the south of the country where Russia has been building up its forces.

Truss replied that Britain would never recognise them as Russian, and had to be corrected by her ambassador..."
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank gaburko for this useful post:
  #2071  
Old 12.02.2022, 21:05
slammer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Lummerland
Posts: 5,661
Groaned at 235 Times in 156 Posts
Thanked 10,535 Times in 4,123 Posts
slammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Just come back from the gym... are we dead yet?
Seriously, you Swissies got your bombshelters dusted and stocked?

This is some Kobayashi Maru stuff. A no win situation.
The best outcome of this situation could result in a limited incursion to create a corridor to the Donbas. Not enough to give Nato a casus belli but enough to force "The West" to word a strong complaint to the UN. Sanctions, saber rattling etc. etc.
Everybody goes home and everybody claims victory.......!
Also the rest of the world sees tha the US is a toothless tiger and won´t come to their aid, perhaps Taiwan decides to get the bomb, along with Indonesia. Japan sees a bellicose China and also builds a bomb.
Hmm! For that matter why not Australia?
Iran thinks that as the sanctions are not being stopped, so why not get the bloody bomb too? Israel won´t like that of course.
Or it all goes Tango Uniform and humanity goes out with a bang and a whimper.
__________________
Back in Bavaria, god´s own belly button.
Reply With Quote
  #2072  
Old 12.02.2022, 22:33
Axa's Avatar
Axa Axa is offline
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 5,585
Groaned at 105 Times in 96 Posts
Thanked 8,195 Times in 3,840 Posts
Axa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond reputeAxa has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Just come back from the gym... are we dead yet?
Seriously, you Swissies got your bombshelters dusted and stocked?

This is some Kobayashi Maru stuff. A no win situation.
The best outcome of this situation could result in a limited incursion to create a corridor to the Donbas. Not enough to give Nato a casus belli but enough to force "The West" to word a strong complaint to the UN. Sanctions, saber rattling etc. etc.
Everybody goes home and everybody claims victory.......!
Also the rest of the world sees tha the US is a toothless tiger and won´t come to their aid, perhaps Taiwan decides to get the bomb, along with Indonesia. Japan sees a bellicose China and also builds a bomb.
Hmm! For that matter why not Australia?
Iran thinks that as the sanctions are not being stopped, so why not get the bloody bomb too? Israel won´t like that of course.
Or it all goes Tango Uniform and humanity goes out with a bang and a whimper.
Toothless tiger? We all know it's a unibrow morally correct eagle

Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Axa for this useful post:
  #2073  
Old 12.02.2022, 23:34
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Zurich
Posts: 588
Groaned at 103 Times in 74 Posts
Thanked 1,584 Times in 824 Posts
John William has a reputation beyond reputeJohn William has a reputation beyond reputeJohn William has a reputation beyond reputeJohn William has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Could Britain see The Return of the Greenham Common Women during the Ukraine crisis ?

BBC News - Greenham Common, the women who fought to ban the bomb
Reply With Quote
  #2074  
Old 12.02.2022, 23:41
marton's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Kt. Zürich
Posts: 12,382
Groaned at 721 Times in 605 Posts
Thanked 24,098 Times in 12,619 Posts
marton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond reputemarton has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Could Britain see The Return of the Greenham Common Women during the Ukraine crisis ?

BBC News - Greenham Common, the women who fought to ban the bomb
At the time I lived in Cardiff and knew many unscrupolous foolishly optimistic men who went to Greenham Common pretending to be supporters in the hopes of a quick one.
Reply With Quote
  #2075  
Old 13.02.2022, 00:09
slammer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Lummerland
Posts: 5,661
Groaned at 235 Times in 156 Posts
Thanked 10,535 Times in 4,123 Posts
slammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
At the time I lived in Cardiff and knew many unscrupolous foolishly optimistic men who went to Greenham Common pretending to be supporters in the hopes of a quick one.
Nuclear dogging?
Reply With Quote
  #2076  
Old 13.02.2022, 10:46
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Up there over the fog
Posts: 4,757
Groaned at 705 Times in 477 Posts
Thanked 4,708 Times in 2,488 Posts
JackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond reputeJackieH has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Well they wouldn't have got one from this one! Not at Greenham Common, not at Molesworth either.

Back to the subject, June 2020.

MOSCOW — President Vladimir Putin on Tuesday endorsed Russia’s nuclear deterrent policy, which allows him to use atomic weapons in response to a conventional strike targeting the nation’s critical government and military infrastructure.

By including a non-nuclear attack as a possible trigger for Russian nuclear retaliation, the document appears to send a warning signal to the U.S. The new expanded wording reflects Russian concerns about the development of prospective weapons that could give Washington the capability to knock out key military assets and government facilities without resorting to atomic weapons.

In line with Russian military doctrine, the new document reaffirms that the country could use nuclear weapons in response to a nuclear attack or an aggression involving conventional weapons that “threatens the very existence of the state.”

https://www.defensenews.com/global/e...uclear-strike/
Reply With Quote
This user groans at JackieH for this post:
  #2077  
Old 13.02.2022, 10:51
komsomolez's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: SZ
Posts: 4,090
Groaned at 400 Times in 286 Posts
Thanked 8,792 Times in 3,759 Posts
komsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond reputekomsomolez has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
In line with Russian military doctrine, the new document reaffirms that the country could use nuclear weapons in response to a nuclear attack or an aggression involving conventional weapons that “threatens the very existence of the state.”
Damn. Let's hope the Ukrainian army won't take Moscow then.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank komsomolez for this useful post:
  #2078  
Old 13.02.2022, 11:09
gaburko's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: BL
Posts: 1,283
Groaned at 235 Times in 170 Posts
Thanked 4,625 Times in 1,749 Posts
gaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond reputegaburko has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

More and more an invasion looks less likely. I think Putin has achieved his goal by showing the unwillingness and inability of the west to actually protect Ukraine and all of this was achieved without incurring any costs to his regime. On the contrary, a cohort of EU leaders were flown into Moscow to avert the crisis, a clear signal, he's in command of the situation and the west is merely reacting by pleading.

To Ukraine it is now even more clear: nobody will save it in case the Bear decides to invade, the calculus of any Ukrainian leader in the future has been changed.

I think the Russians will continue to support the Donbas separatists, but at this point I don't think Russian tanks will invade.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank gaburko for this useful post:
  #2079  
Old 13.02.2022, 11:19
TinyK's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Left bank of Lake Zurich
Posts: 1,445
Groaned at 66 Times in 46 Posts
Thanked 1,577 Times in 797 Posts
TinyK has a reputation beyond reputeTinyK has a reputation beyond reputeTinyK has a reputation beyond reputeTinyK has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Quote:
View Post
Thank you Slammer- excellent post and spot on.
Unbelievable. I didn't know that Russian propaganda worked so good outside Russia as well.

Putin said many times that he regrets the breakup of Soviet Union and he doesn't believe in Ukrainians as a nation, doesn't consider their language is a real language etc. But it's still the Americans to blame for Russian aggression?

There was no real revolution in Ukraine. The president fled but the parliament remained fully operational and appointed a temporary person for this post for a few months before the preterm elections of the new president took place. The change of the will of Ukrainian population to go towards NATO was a result of Russian aggression, not Maidan.

And yes, my whole family lives in Ukraine and their lives are under threat right now because of the ambitions of a crazy Russian leader whose goal is to build USSR 2.0.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank TinyK for this useful post:
This user groans at TinyK for this post:
  #2080  
Old 13.02.2022, 11:23
slammer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Lummerland
Posts: 5,661
Groaned at 235 Times in 156 Posts
Thanked 10,535 Times in 4,123 Posts
slammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond reputeslammer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Not sure if nuclear weapons are that much a deterrent these days. When we think about nuclear war we imagine a world ending conflagration, but That won´t happen and if you consider that even after over 2000 have already been detonated since 1945 we are still here, more or less.
Also the weapons are small enough and precise enough to be used without much of a consequence.
So why should militaries be afraid of using them?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank slammer for this useful post:
Reply

Tags
crimea, russia, ukraine




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Jewish Refugees in Switzerland during World War II zanskar International affairs/politics 48 16.06.2010 15:58
Book about Switzerland in the second world war [recommendation?] telandy Other/general 14 18.06.2007 20:15


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:45.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0