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  #221  
Old 19.03.2014, 15:36
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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About "he said the contrary yesterday. Not allegedly, in public." This will be the same Putin who said in public "There is no Russian military in Crimea, only local militias"?



About "Turkish armed forces with only some 3 million men under weapons" Turkey is in NATO and in the event of any military action the West might prefer to fight not too close to home?
Whatever, nobody is silly enough to attack Turkey.
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  #222  
Old 19.03.2014, 15:38
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Sure:

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/66a08...#axzz2wOpEBuji

I'm so glad Russia saved Crimea from bat-weilding fascist thugs

...by the way, what happens now to the Ukrainian people in Crimea? Those who were born in Ukraine, lived in Ukraine all their life, have a Ukranian passport, and now suddenly within a couple of weeks, now find themselves in a foreign land? Who will protect these minorities now? Will Ukrainian be an official language there? Can they keep their Ukrainian passports? Will they be attacked or intimidated if they refuse?
If they remain Ukrainian citizens they will be foreigners. So that the way to go is to become Russian citizens
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  #223  
Old 19.03.2014, 15:44
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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I have no clue what is the point you are making -
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Well, I am hardly surprised.
Bill Clinton's zipper made him bomb Serbia, so that gives Putin the right to take Crimea from Ukraine. Pay attention
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  #224  
Old 19.03.2014, 16:23
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Who's up for a return to the 18th century? Bagsy I get to be Sultan of Constantinople. I'm sure a turban would suit me.
Suppose you don't have in mind only a...ahem, certain section of Topkapi?

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  #225  
Old 19.03.2014, 18:30
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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About "he said the contrary yesterday. Not allegedly, in public." This will be the same Putin who said in public "There is no Russian military in Crimea, only local militias"?
You use Putin's alleged words in your argument and I supposed to believe it - I use Putin's real words in my argument and you dismiss it. Sorry dear, but too much cheap rhetorics makes your boat sink. And I don't even like Russia.
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  #226  
Old 19.03.2014, 21:18
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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...by the way, what happens now to the Serbian people in Kosovo? Those who were born in Serbia, lived in Serbia all their life, have a Serbian passport, and now suddenly within a couple of weeks, now find themselves in a foreign land? Who will protect these minorities now? Will Serbian be an official language there? Can they keep their Serbian passports? Will they be attacked or intimidated if they refuse?

"During the unrest, 19 civilians were killed (8 ethnic Serbs and 11 ethnic Albanians), over 4,000 Serbs were forced to leave their homes, 935 Serb houses, 10 public facilities (schools, health care centers and post offices) and 35 Serbian Orthodox church-buildings were desecrated, damaged or destroyed, and six towns and nine villages were ethnically cleansed according to Serbian media"
Very sad but not on the same scale as the Crimea
On 18 May 1944, the entire population of the Crimean Tatars (who constituted about 25% of the Crimean population) were forcibly deported in the "Sürgün" (Crimean Tatar for exile) to Central Asia by Joseph Stalin's Soviet government as a form of collective punishment on the grounds that they had collaborated with the Nazi occupation forces. An estimated 46% of the deportees died from hunger and disease.
Then Russians were moved in to fill the gaps which is one reason there are so many Russian there.

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You use Putin's alleged words in your argument and I supposed to believe it - I use Putin's real words in my argument and you dismiss it. Sorry dear, but too much cheap rhetorics makes your boat sink. And I don't even like Russia.
Here is one of many links to Putin's statements that there were no Russian troops in Crimea; only local militias. This one is from a Russian newspaper.
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  #227  
Old 19.03.2014, 21:23
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Bill Clinton's zipper made him bomb Serbia, so that gives Putin the right to take Crimea from Ukraine. Pay attention
Wrong again - it was the free will of people living in Crimea, as shown by the referendum, that gave him such right.

And there is nothing you can do about it...
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  #228  
Old 19.03.2014, 21:27
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Here is one of many links to Putin's statements that there were no Russian troops in Crimea; only local militias. This one is from a Russian newspaper.
Strawman fallacy again. You use Putin's (alleged) word for your argument but Putin's word are not admissible as an argument against you? Get real.
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  #229  
Old 19.03.2014, 21:27
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Joseph Stalin's Soviet government .
Who was Georgian, by the way...

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  #230  
Old 19.03.2014, 23:27
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Very sad but not on the same scale as the Crimea
On 18 May 1944, the entire population of the Crimean Tatars (who constituted about 25% of the Crimean population) were forcibly deported in the "Sürgün" (Crimean Tatar for exile) to Central Asia by Joseph Stalin's Soviet government
.
Well, that was a common practice of the soviets in those times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_...e_Soviet_Union

http://www.geocurrents.info/place/ru...red-ethnic-map

I don't think it should be a real concern today...

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  #231  
Old 20.03.2014, 01:01
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Who was Georgian, by the way...

just as Nikita Sergeyevich Chrushtshow was Ukrainian, and Czaress Katharina II German (as was the famous pianist Svjatoslav Richter)
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  #232  
Old 20.03.2014, 01:15
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Well, that was a common practice of the soviets in those times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_...e_Soviet_Union

http://www.geocurrents.info/place/ru...red-ethnic-map

I don't think it should be a real concern today...
About "I don't think it should be a real concern today.." except for those Crimea Ukrainians who fail to trade in their passports for Russian ones
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  #233  
Old 20.03.2014, 01:53
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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About "I don't think it should be a real concern today.." except for those Crimea Ukrainians who fail to trade in their passports for Russian ones
I am fairly sure that ANY Crimea-Ukrainian who wants to get Russian citizenship WILL get it swiftly.

Putin has now got, in record time, the Crimea and unlimited access to the Krim via the Krasnodar Region. Katharina II would be very proud of her successor in the Kreml. But right now he needs peace and will try to calm the waves. In a not so very distant future, Crimea-champagne (Krim-Sekt) will be exported, far more than up to now, to Western Europe. Russia will prepare the Crimea for being marketed in the tourism industry of Western Europe. This is what Messrs Steinmeier (DE) and Burkhalter (CH) mean when stating "Krim is now Russian but we have to make sure that Russia does NOT touch the Eastern Ukraine "

I outlined before the two options open now the the Russian Empire in regard to the South/Southwest. A third option is the two Azerbaijans, the independent Republic of Azerbaijan (Baku) and the important Iranian Azerbaijan (Tabriz) . About half of the Iranian military top staff is Azeri. But an "Azeri Corridor" from Volgograd via Baku and Tabriz to Abadan is practically hopeless. So that what remains is the Trabzon-Iskenderun-Corridor and the Sofia-Saloniki-Corridor. The Greeks may be ready for co-operation if getting enough money and gas from Russia

You may have noticed that Obama for the first time got seriously angry. Because he realizes that Putin wants to oust the Americans from its bastion in Turkey. The US-American position in Greece became downgraded already years ago. And a Greek Prime Minister who gets contracts to the Saloniki region with thousands of jobs WINS the next parliamentary elections

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  #234  
Old 20.03.2014, 07:09
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

Am I missing something?

Ukraine´s previous government was unlawfully ousted. No one has disputed this, not even the US government.

Crimea had a referendum and voted close to 100%. In favor of who?

Can someone please clarify these two, I believe very valid points?
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  #235  
Old 20.03.2014, 08:37
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Am I missing something?

Ukraine´s previous government was unlawfully ousted. No one has disputed this, not even the US government.

Crimea had a referendum and voted close to 100%. In favor of who?

Can someone please clarify these two, I believe very valid points?
Sure.

Regarding the first point, the people of Ukraine got fed up with the criminal behavior of their government and forced a new election to choose new leaders. The current government is an interim (temporary) government, until new elections are held in about 2 months from now. In the new elections, all parties, from east and west, can put forward their best candidates and the people can vote for them in a free and fair election monitored by international observers.

Regarding the second point, the Russian army marched into Crimea and held a hastily organized "vote" in a matter of about 2 weeks that was declared to be neither free nor fair by the international community and will not be recognized. Plus secession permanent, not temporary, big difference from the first point.
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  #236  
Old 20.03.2014, 12:46
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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About "I don't think it should be a real concern today.." except for those Crimea Ukrainians who fail to trade in their passports for Russian ones
..I don't believe that Putin will act so stupid, after all it's not like he's handing out Swiss passports, is it? . We'll see.
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  #237  
Old 20.03.2014, 14:37
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

I just came home and found these in my living-room. They won't let me go near my TV and say that I am not allowed in my living-room anymore. What should I do?

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Old 20.03.2014, 14:42
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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About "I don't think it should be a real concern today.." except for those Crimea Ukrainians who fail to trade in their passports for Russian ones
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..I don't believe that Putin will act so stupid, after all it's not like he's handing out Swiss passports, is it? . We'll see.
I meant the people who want to stay Ukrainian; not that Putin would withhold the passports.
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  #239  
Old 20.03.2014, 15:01
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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I meant the people who want to stay Ukrainian; not that Putin would withhold the passports.
Dual-citizenship? I have no idea whether that would be allowed under the Russian legislation or not. Stay Ukrainian as in preserving their culture, language as a minority? Have no idea how that functions in Russia either. Perhaps Ukrainians themselves would also have to comply with European standards if they choose E.U.
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  #240  
Old 20.03.2014, 20:29
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Re: World War 3 or just a local spat in Ukraine?

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Dual-citizenship? I have no idea whether that would be allowed under the Russian legislation or not. Stay Ukrainian as in preserving their culture, language as a minority? Have no idea how that functions in Russia either. Perhaps Ukrainians themselves would also have to comply with European standards if they choose E.U.
Putin said that there will be three official languages in Crimea - Russian, Ukrainian and Crimean Tartar.
http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_0...ar-Putin-4125/

Russia allows holding multiple citizenships, and as far as I know so does Ukraine -- for now. Because recently liberated and newly democratic Ukraine is now trying to change this:

"On February 8, 2014, the Rada proposed a bill to criminalize the act of holding two citizenships." - from Wikipedia.
One can only guess what would happen to people with Russian and other passports if this bill becomes the law.
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